The PCA and Intinction: Perhaps a Different Conversation is in Order

So last week, by a margin of fourteen votes, the 40th General Assembly voted to send a proposed amendment to BCO 58 to the Presbyteries that will effectively ban the practice of intinction. The church plant I serve does not practice intinction, but I am not opposed to it. I do believe the practice should be allowed because I believe it to be adiaphora. I realize there are differing opinions and fears but I think a bigger conversation is to be had that addresses other widespread practices rather than targeting twenty or thirty churches, affecting our military chaplains and senior ministries. I am not writing this to change “hearts and minds,” but to offer a few thoughts from last week’s debate.
First, I appreciate that both sides used Scripture. So often we weigh our debates down in policy and BCO articles to the neglect of the Scriptures. This was great to see.

Second, I was disturbed by a couple of things. One pastor made a comment about “liturgical anarchy” and said the Directory of Worship should have full constitutional force. Essentially, the argument was for conformity, not unity. Odd to hear something like that stated in an allegedly grassroots denomination and extremely neglectful about the historical realities of multi-culturalism. I think it is arrogant to think that one slice of the history of redemption worshipped to near biblical perfection to the exclusion of the creativity and diversity present in God’s people throughout time and culture.  That was the thrust behind the “liturgical anarchy” statement – the PCA should have one form of worship for all. I also think the African American TE sitting two rows in front of me did not seem to like that comment based upon his body language. It also felt weird to me to hear Nadab and Abihu brought into the debate. I have not heard them brought up in a worship context since my fundamentalist days when we were told electric guitars were strange fire and the old paths were our Baptist hymnals and King James Bibles. Flashback!

Third, one gentleman who supported the change made a great point, we are supposed to reform and be always reforming. I thought to myself, “yes!” and it seems the weekly, joyful, intinction guys are starting that conversation by bringing back the common cup and emphasizing the corporate nature of communion that takes into account cultural realities like germ fears, etc. We also know that intinction occurred in the RPCES, PCUSA and probably the UPC. Those are our immediate predecessors, not the Puritans.

Fourth, much was made of “separate actions” and “eat and drink.” Awesome. For a room full of M.Divs, MAs, STMs, ThDs and PhDs, we never engaged how much of a descriptive passage becomes prescriptive. Should we sit around a table? One loaf even for our large churches? One cup? Locally-sourced unleavened bread? The order in which we sing songs the way the first communion occurred? What do we do about that pesky Judas taking the supper?

Fifth, the Bible, Westminster Standards and BCO clearly state “wine” for the sacrament. Why don’t we start there? Grape juice is a pragmatic, 19th century innovation that is widespread among our American, pietist Christian culture. Why do we allow that?

Lastly, one of the issues raised by opponents of intinction is pragmatism. The bottom line for me is this: which is more pragmatic? Adopting individualistic American practices of infrequent memorialist communion with Welch’s and a chiclet-sized pressed bread substance or something that makes attempts to do justice to the corporate nature of the sacrament and done weekly, reverently, joyfully and differently than the widespread Fundamentalist/Evangelical status quo?

We say the sacraments are important. If our practices look more like the memorialist traditions, then they are not. I think there is a conversation to be had concerning the PCA and how we view and practice the Lord’s Supper, and it is not about intinction.

Author Bio

Bobby is one of the pastors planting City Presbyterian in Oklahoma City, OK. You can follow him on twitter if you dare: www.twitter.com/bobby_griffith

  • http://twitter.com/TimTaylor_Sr Tim Taylor

    Some good points, Bobby. It’s quite odd to me that we’re ok with people not using the actual elements that Jesus used, but something like the practice of intinction causes a big stir. Perhaps we should settle the issue of the elements we’ll use before we fight about what to do with them!

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Tim,

      Do you think the sacramental actions are adiaphora, or are they important to the meaning of the Supper as a sacrament? With regard to the elements, am I correct to presume your congregation serves wine? Our church offers both wine and grape juice. We came from a church which served juice only, so we wanted to promote the use of wine. Our Session recently debated eliminating the grape juice. While I was originally in favor of doing so, I ended up persuaded that offering both was acceptable, since Scripture itself does not record or specify the alcohol content of the cup, referring to it as “the fruit of the vine” and never as “wine” (though there should be no doubt that is what was used.

      With regard to the bread, do you believe we should use unleavened bread? My own view after studying the matter is that anything rightly called “bread” could be used without issue, although I think whatever is most like the “common bread” of the culture is best in terms of signifying the provision of God for the nourishment of our souls. It seems to me that the theological reason for the unleavened bread in the Passover is no longer applicable — and even that we wouldn’t want the same connotations in the Supper today.

      In any event, why is it you find the precise nature of the elements (alcohol content, presence of yeast, etc.) to be more important than a clear imperative command of Christ that the communicant “eat” and “drink” as the sacramental actions?

      Jerry

    • Terry Pruitt

      A friend of mine who is an alcoholic feels that he should be always given the option of grape juice as his fruit of the vine since he does not wish to relapse.

  • https://twitter.com/#!/ZachAmes ZachA

    I just wish the argument was over whether or not we were concentrating on the wrong stuff in general. It seems like then we’d realize we’re having these conversations because it flashes the appearance of being overly important while allowing us to ignore the fact that our communities are suffering.

    • Jared Nelson

       Obedience to the commands of our Lord is always the right conversation to have. I invite you to participate in the conversation, rather than lament the conversation is occurring. Jerry’s comments below on eating and drinking as commands would be a wonderful place to start. I look forward to hearing out your arguments.

  • IanH

    Thanks for your perspective. I had many of the same responses to the debate. I am an assistant at a church that practices intinction, though I understand where those questioning it come from.  In relation to the Nadab and Abihu comment, I can understand your reaction. However, in your description of relating it to your fundamentalist roots, it seems you are trying to diminish the biblical argument due to the weight of your anecdotal experience.  I think that is the same error that those against intinction make when they see it as a practice necessarily tied to being “hipster” or a move towards Rome that they think (wrongly, I believe) is endemic to a lot of the young pastors in the PCA.  Even if RE Mattes overreached in his argument, his point at God’s zeal for his worship is truly something we should take into account, particularly since those that practice intinction appeal to their zeal to recapture the communal nature of worship that God intended.

  • http://delignovitae.wordpress.com/ Todd Gwennap

    Bobby,

    I think these are some great points. I have been planning on reflecting on the intinction debate at my blog, and I share many of your same concerns.

    I think that part of the difficulty we face as a denomination is our lack of awareness about the enculturation of our interpretations and practices. During the debate, there seemed to be a desire to pound our fist on the table and say, “The Bible does not command intinction. Period!” I understand that desire. I really do. And yet, implicit in that posture is a lack of reflection on the cultural distance between ourselves and Scripture.

    We always enact the norms of Scripture in our particular cultural moment, and we always bring with us cultural baggage. The communion at worship on the first night of GA is a perfect example. We did not receive the Supper seated around a table. We received the cup in the form of thousands (literally) of individual servings, presumably due to the modern obsession with cleanliness and avoiding illness. The “unfermented fruit of the vine” served is a historical novelty offered due to the stigma attached to alcohol in (primarily) Southern, conservative, evangelical churches. The leavened, gluten-free bread was offered out of sensitivity to Christians with gluten allergies. The method of distribution, passing plates down rows of seated people, essentially means that the sacrament is received from a layperson, an accommodation to modern church architecture.

    We have made all of these changes without feeling the need to amend the BCO nor the Standards, and we have presumed liberty to do so. Intinction, it seems to me, takes steps to bring at least 3 of the above-mentioned issues into closer conformity with the Biblical witness, even if it introduces a new issue. Do I believe that intinction is the means of receiving the elements that Christ performed? I do not. But neither do I believe that individual servings of grape juice and loaves of leavened, gluten-free bread are true to the “original” form. I believe the wisest course here is liberty, not conformity.

    I would also suggest that the future of sacramental reflection in our circles will be missiological and not (primarily) biblical-theological. As the Gospel goes forth in the church, there will be renewed desires for the sacraments to carry their full theological freight. I, for one, think this will only strengthen us as a denomination.

    • Jared Nelson

       I for one, celebrate our Christian Liberty. Yet, the question is not whether we have liberty, especially as pertaining to not commanding as binding what the Scriptures do not command. Yet we also do not allow, or work contrary to what Scripture commands. Most in favor of intinction ASSUME that it is a matter of liberty, but I would invite you to PROVE that it is a matter of liberty in the light of the verbs “eat” and “drink.” Jerry’s comments below would be the perfect place to do so as he asks if EATING soggy bread is the same as DRINKING, and if we need to observe that there are two commands, not one concerning the partaking of the supper. I understand that you believe it is a matter of liberty, but that is being challenged and if it is not answered, then it becomes a matter of disobedience, and I don’t want to ignore a matter of disobedience, nor allow our sheep to be subjected to disobedience on the part of ministers to the command of Christ our Lord.

    • http://twitter.com/toddgwennap Todd Gwennap

      Hi Jared,

      I understand that a nebulous appeal to liberty could be used to justify all sorts of aberrations, perhaps even leading to “liturgical anarchy.”

      My comment was quickly becoming a treatise, so I cut it off. I would certainly be happy to engage Jerry’s biblical arguments, with one caveat: the central thrust of my previous comment was that we, as a denomination, have allowed liberty in our practice(s) of the Lord’s Supper. Individual cups vs. common cups, wine vs. grape juice, seated at table vs. coming forward vs. plate passed down the pew, leavened vs. unleavened bread, etc. It seems to me that that intinction would fall under the same umbrella that covers these other issues.

      To Jerry’s original point, I think that Kyle does a good job of responding to the commands “Eat” and “Drink.” I also agree that the argument “Verbs!” ought to be met with the argument “Direct Objects!” Both are important to convey meaning. “Bread” and “Cup” are both in the singular; however I would not make the case for common loaf/common cup solely there.

      The one text I have yet to see mentioned is 1 Cor 10:14-22. There, Paul’s point is explicit. The “one bread” and “cup” that we participate in is to be a sign of our unity as God’s people. It is hard to get much more explicit than that. The physical symbol is tied to the theological reality. Intinction, for whatever drawbacks it introduces, captures this reality much better than individual servings of grape juice.

      For what it’s worth, I think that, biblically- and historically-speaking, common bread (leavened or unleavened – a different argument!) and common cup (of wine!) is the way to go. However, I acknowledge that cultural and historical realities have conditioned the way we think about distributing and receiving the elements. If there is liberty on wine, there is liberty on intinction, in my reasoning. Jerry argues that Scripture does not specify the alcohol content. True enough, but a red herring, in my opinion. Scripture speaks often and richly about wine, not the least of which is Psalm 104:14-15 “You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man’s heart.” My heart has rarely been gladdened by Welch’s.

      Man, my comments keep getting too long! I guess my basic point is that we need to have a long a serious conversation in the PCA about the manner in which our history and culture have shaped our sacramental practice. I don’t think that beginning by forbidding the practice of intinction is particularly helpful.

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Todd,

      I really don’t get your response. You basically argue that because we have exercised liberty with regards to many particulars of the Lord’s Supper, we should have liberty with regard to the sacramental action. This merely begs the question under discussion: do we have liberty with regard to the sacramental actions or not? 

      You assert that intinction should fall into a category of liberty. Do you have reasons why you believe we have liberty in this area? 

      As best I can tell so far, the only response to the argument that intinction violates the command of Christ to “drink.” is that we need to have one cup? How is that satisfying? Do you agree that such an answer is a red herring? Christ commands us to ”Drink of it, all of you” (Matt. 26:27) and Paul tells us we are to “drink of the cup” (1 Cor. 11:28). Your response is essentially, “we don’t need to drink because some people don’t use a single cup.” I’ll let the reader decide the appeal of such an argument. But please realize that pointing out apparent problems with a someone else’s practice is not a valid defense for disobeying a clear command ourselves.

      I did mention 1 Cor. 10 in my earlier comments to Bobby. Look at the verses 16-17: “The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.”

      Note that the strong language used about the “one loaf” is not used for the cup. Nevertheless, assuming that is Paul’s theological point, let me ask you this: Do the believers in my congregation participate in the body of Christ along with the believers in yours? Are we part of the same body? Do we partake of the one bread? Must we share one single loaf across all congregations in order to have this participation together in the body of Christ, or is it okay that we have different loaves? 
      If you take nothing else from my comments, please understand this: arguments for a single cup and single loaf have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with intinction. They don’t respond in any way to the argument that intinction violates the command of Christ to “drink.” Neither do arguments about the table, the alcohol content of the wine, the presence of yeast in the bread.

      I prefer wine in the Lord’s supper for many of the reasons given here in discussion. I do not like the serving of grape juice. But that has nothing to do with intinction at all. It is a red herring. 

    • http://twitter.com/toddgwennap Todd Gwennap

      Hi Jerry,

      It’s good to talk with you (if only through the internet). We serve on the GA Nominating Committee together. I’m looking forward to your leadership next year.

      It is entirely possible that my comments have been unclear. I posted my last comment right as someone was coming into my office and so didn’t give it that extra “elbow grease” of editing. I’m either unclear or absolutely wrong – both are equally possible. And my apologies for missing your reference to 1 Cor 10. Threaded comments always throw me off!

      I certainly do not mean to beg the question. My point about liberty elsewhere in the sacrament is basically this: we have felt free to extend liberty up to and including the elements themselves. It seems natural to me that liberty might also extend, to some extent, to mode.

      I suppose that if we wanted to argue the issue purely on semantic grounds, I’d want to define the word “drink.” I’m sure this sounds ridiculous (and let me know if it does!), but I can’t get a better definition than “to ingest a liquid.” If so, then it seems to me that intinction would be “in bounds.” 

      Your point about the invalidity of a tu quoque here is well-taken. I guess all of that talk (from me, at least) was essentially to ask, “Why intinction?” Why is this the proverbial line in the sand? I understand and agree that sacramental actions matter, but it seems to me that the essence of Christ’s command in the Lord’s Supper is that we ingest the elements. It could be likened, I suppose, to the liberty permitted on baptismal mode (which, I readily acknowledge, has no explicit “verb” in the original languages).

      This might be even less helpful than my previous comments, but it is the nub of what I am thinking. And, again, I say all of this as one not terribly fond of intinction as a practice. I believe I’ve only ever received the Lord’s Supper by intinction twice, and I will likely not make it my practice in the future (and largely for the reasons you have articulated). I simply don’t think it is as obviously “out of bounds” as some of my brothers apparently do.

    • Jedidiah Slaboda

      Jerry, since you allow for the use of grape juice at the Lord’s table, have you made your violation of our constitution known to your Presbytery? If so, what was their response?

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Jedediah,
      First, I am a ruling elder, and so the court of original jurisdiction in my case is the Session of my church. Second, I do not take exception to the constitution (neither the Standards nor the BCO) since I believe wine ought to be used. Our Session has allowed both wine and unfermented grape juice to be offered. We recently discussed this issue, and I expressed my opinion, but I will grant that I did not vote to eliminate the grape juice. After further reflection, I think I ought to raise the matter of constitutional obedience to the Session, and ask that we offer wine only in obedience to the Constitution, regardless of personal views.

      Do you think your practice of intinction violates WLC 169? If so, have you made such known to your Presbytery?

      Jerry

    • Jedidiah

       Jerry, I am firmly against the inovation of grape juice and the reasoning behind it. I held that view when I was ordained but didn’t notice that the WCF and BCO of the PCA assume wine. The session of my church added a chalice of wine because a new attendedee requested it. My dislike was not seen as a constitutional issue and I assume that my session would have seen this as a non-issue if I had pressed them on it.

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Jedediah, I think you misunderstood my question. It wasn’t about wine versus grape juice. It was about intinction as a practice.

    • Sam DeSocio

      Jerry, are you asking Jed. if he told his session he wanted intinction?

    • Jedidiah

       Jerry, I just reviewed WLC 169 and I think the answer is yes and no. Intinction is not what 169 has in mind (I’m guessing) as it describes the eating of the bread and wine by communicants so it is not what is being instructed. It also seems difficult to argue a. that intinction is not eating and drinking in a very technical sense (sipping from a thimble is not what WCF 169 has in mind when it tells us to ‘drink’). So I would say, technically, no, intinction is not a violation of the command of Jesus or the catechism to drink. I’m thinking of the whole thing in terms of esse and bene esse. The best practice, I believe, would be for the sacrament to be administered in ways that closely resemble eating and drinking as is possible. The practice of intinction, as I understand it, has become more popular in Protestant churches as our culture has become more fearful of germs. It is a practice born out of some degree of ignorance (intinction is the germiest method I have witnessed) and yet, I think, is pastorally defensible as it seems to proponents to be a helpful shortcut around a pretty common question. The best thing the church could do in all of this would be to show why the practice is neither medically necessary nor theologically helpful. I think the same thought should be put into the other questions related to our communion practices, e.g. cup v. cups, sitting in pews v. processing to a table or a server. All of these are significant variations borne out of practical concerns and they need to be understood well and defensible. That would be a much more helpful approach than simply banning it, in my opinion. My elders have reacted to this as nit-picking and insensitive to the medical concern that caused them to start doing it this way. I could use all the help I can get if I am going to persuade them to practice communion differently.

    • Jared Nelson

       
      Todd, thank you very much for the reply. I will try to
      reply acknowledging the furtherance of the conversation with Jerry.

      You had said: “//the argument “Verbs!” ought to be
      met with the argument “Direct Objects!” //

      and
      clarified that later as: //we have felt free to
      extend liberty up to and including the elements themselves. It seems
      natural to me that liberty might also extend, to some extent, to
      mode. //

      I would respond saying, I would forcefully disagree that
      we have liberty in regards to the elements. I would say as to the
      essence, there is certainly NOT liberty to change the elements. If I
      saw a church using Oreos and Milk, I assure you that intinction would
      be the least of my concerns. We are not at liberty to change the
      direct object as to its substance, either by Scripture or by the BCO
      and our Standards which specifically states “bread and wine” [BCO
      58-5, LC 168, 169, 170 etc, WCF 29.3, 29.6, 29.7]. Now, we might have
      a reasonable debate as to the semantic and lexical range of meaning
      on “bread” and “wine.,” but that is not liberty on the
      elements. Can we agree that there is not liberty as regards the
      elements?

      I would also hope that if you learned of another church
      that was having Cheeze-its and mountain dew for the supper that you
      would report that as an offense to Scripture and our Standards. [I am not making light, I actually had a seminary friend say they did that for the Supper] Yet,
      even if it was bread and mountain dew, still you would bring them up
      on charges that they have violated the principle of no “denial of
      the cup to the people” in WCF 29.4? But yet, if I am not given the
      wine to drink in the service because I am only to dip the bread, not
      to drink it, has not the cup been denied?

      Now, for your definition of drink/pino as “ingesting a
      liquid,” presumably by any means since you would include that
      liquid in the vessel of a solid both being consumed at the same time.
      I wonder if you have any other examples of “drink” in that
      lexical use [I can't glancing at the 74 or so uses in the New
      Testament], in the form of liquid within a solid eaten together, as
      either in Scripture or common Koine Greek literature at the time. If
      not, that may be an interesting personal definition, but would have
      no relevance as to the actual force of the verb in Greek, and would
      be irrelevant for the conversation.

      Now, perhaps you mean the unity of those elements within a
      common vessel. But even there, you would need to prove the case as to
      Jesus saying “drink of it” that the other disciples did not have
      cups in front of them. For I can say when teaching someone to shoot a
      basketball “take it and throw it” and my singular does not mean
      you throw my ball, but that kids have balls in their hands ready to
      throw.

    • http://twitter.com/toddgwennap Todd Gwennap

      Hi Jared,

      We are certainly agreed that there is not an absolute liberty with respect to the elements of the sacraments. As I noted in my original comment, though, there is much reflection to be done on the sacraments from a missiological perspective. I have spoken to missionaries before who have raised the issue about what elements should be used in cultures that have neither wine nor wheat bread. I believe even somewhere in this post/comment thread, someone mentioned “cultural equivalents.” I’m not speaking about those issues at this point.

      My original point was that we have allowed, in the PCA, a degree of liberty with respect to the bread and cup. I won’t rehash the list here. It seems pretty clear from Scripture (Mt 26, at least) that Jesus broke a loaf of bread and then gave “it” to the disciples. Similarly with the cup (of wine). And yet, we have found it acceptable (to this point) to permit a variety of practices in the PCA. Again, Paul is clear in 1 Cor 10:16-17 that there is theological significance (the unity of Christ’s body) to the “one bread” and “the cup.”

      We can debate lexical semantics if you want. Honestly, I’d be happy to do that. But I don’t really think that exegesis is the root of the issue here. Like I’ve already stated, I don’t particularly care for the practice of intinction. Nor do I plan on practicing it. The church I currently serve does not practice intinction either. And, to be frank, the reasons that you and Jerry have given are the basic reasons I do not practice intinction. I think the nub of our disagreement has more to do with interpretations of the regulative principle and the nature of good faith subscription.

      My sense has been that those in favor of the proposed BCO amendment are arguing on the basis of a strict reading of the regulative principle (and I do not intend this to be pejorative). “Scripture nowhere commands us to dip the bread. In fact, when instituting the Supper, Christ issues two commands. Thus, we must eat and drink in two separate actions.” My concern with where we stand is that this strict reading of the regulative principle seems to be selective. In other words, like I rhetorically asked above, why is intinction the line in the sand? Why is there not similar concern that we use a common loaf to show our unity in Christ’s body (1 Cor 10:16-17)? Why is there not similar concern that we use wine, which is clearly the liquid Jesus used to institute the supper, and which anticipates the messianic banquet at the end of history (Is. 25:6)?

      Again, this is not to question anyone’s motives here. I am genuinely interested to understand why the concern over intinction trumps these other concerns.

      By the way, I really appreciate the chance to interact with you and Jerry on this. It has been particularly helpful for me to clarify my own thinking.

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Todd,
      I think the main point of disagreement is twofold.

      1. The meaning and importance of the word, “drink.” I think there’s a problem when we say that the important thing is merely that we “ingest” the sacramental elements. Do we have warrant to make such a reduction in light of the biblical data? We see Christ giving the bread, telling us to eat, then giving the cup, telling us to drink. Even if we agree that the definition of “drink” is to “ingest a liquid” then intinction fails to pass the test. When we eat a piece of soggy bread, we do not consume a liquid. I hope that is obvious to you. Here’s a simple test for you: gather some children around you. Take a piece of bread, and dip it into some liquid. Now eat it. Ask the children what you just did. Ask them if you drank anything. Let us know what they say. It’s clear to them – clear to all that are willing to consider this objectively. Eating something moist is not ingesting a liquid. It isn’t drinking. And even if it were, intinction would still fail the test of the separate administration: bread then wine with different meaning.

      The Lord himself gives different meaning to the different elements, and specifies a separation in their consumption. We would need a pretty strong warrant to claim Christ had no compelling reason to do so, and that such a specification was without importance. I would encourage you to read the grounds offered in the OC minority report. It explains that there are further theological reasons to avoid mixing the two elements, apart from the example and command of Christ. The sacrifice of Christ is demonstrated in the separation of body and blood. That very separation speaks to his death – as did the OT practice of removing the blood from the body of the sacrifice. If we combine them, it would appear to diminish the symbolism of his body broken and blood outpoured. 

      2. You said, “I think the nub of our disagreement has more to do with interpretations of the regulative principle and the nature of good faith subscription.” I disagree. This is not really about the regulative principle of worship. If it were, the matter would probably be resolved already – intinction isn’t commanded, as you admit. Nor can the sacramental actions be a matter of circumstance according to WCF 1.6. The Confession defines circumstances as things “common to human actions and societies.” The sacramental elements and actions are not common to human actions and societies. They are almost as far away from circumstances as possible: they are uniquely Christian, full of spiritual significance.

      But this is not the primary argument I (and most others) have been making. We are not saying that there is an absence of warrant and command to practice intinction, and thus it should be banned. We are saying it directly contradicts a command to consume the elements separately, to “eat” the bread and “drink” the cup. Thus, our primary concern is to show that intinction is disobedient to the command of Christ (though I do not believe anyone is doing so intentionally). We ought not to practice it if we are to be faithful to the Word and teach our congregations to value the teaching of Scripture very highly – far above our own ideas and preferences.

      Finally I will repeat again: this has nothing to do with the common loaf or common cup. I see value in those things, though they certainly are not commanded, they are not nearly as clear as the command to eat and drink. They are mentioned not directly in the words of institution, but rather are used as an example to teach a spiritual truth of union in the body of Christ. We have such union between congregations as well, despite our use of different loaves. As a result, a single loaf is preferable, but a large church would not lose the imagery of the union in the body with a few large loaves instead of one gigantic loaf. I am also concerned that we ought to use wine, but Jesus isn’t so concerned about it that he specifies it, of course. Neither does Paul. I would encourage, but not impose the use of wine as it goes beyond the Scripture. 

    • http://twitter.com/toddgwennap Todd Gwennap

       Hi Jerry,

      This will probably be my last response, because I’m pretty sure we’ve reached the point where we are both repeating ourselves. I’ll make this brief:

      1) I agree with you about the importance of the verbs “eat” and “drink.” Like I’ve said a few times, I am not personally a proponent of intinction. I do, though, think that intinction is not outside the pale. Christ gave us two elements, and then used the verbs that correspond to those two elements. Eating is what you do with food. Drinking with liquid. To insist that some forms of ingesting liquid by mouth (i.e. dipping) do not count as drinking seems overly restrictive to me. I know we will disagree here.

      2) I did not say it was a matter of the regulative principle but a reading of the regulative principle. (I shouldn’t have added good faith subscription above, so I appreciate you not jumping on that!) You are insisting that this is not only an invalid “form” (the category I prefer over circumstances), but it is directly contradicting a command of the Lord. That strikes me as a pretty strict reading of the regulative principle. I’ve heard the names Nadab and Abihu bandied about a bit.

      3) I think you go too far to suggest that the Lord commanded we eat and drink “separately.” The Lord commanded that we “eat” and that we “drink,” not that we do it separately. The fact that Jesus gave us two imperatives is not the same as requiring their absolute separation. Two separate imperatives is not an implicit forbidding of their conflation. I might offer the Great Commission as an example, where the great string of participles carry imperatival force. The fact of separate verbs does not there forbid these actions occurring simultaneously, as if one must be careful not to speak during a baptism, lest we conflate the Lord’s command to baptize and to teach.

      Again, I find myself in the strange position of defending a practice I myself do not care for. These are but some of the reasons I haven’t found arguments against intinction particularly persuasive so far, but to be honest, prior to reading the overture for the first time, I had never given much thought to intinction. Thanks again for the interaction!

    • Jedidiah Slaboda

      We also violated the BCO by substituting grape juice for wine.

  • Tom Cannon

    adiaphora.  Yes, yes and amen. The G.A.was, on balance, a good week but this discussion was discouraging.

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Tom, do you take exception to WLC 174? It says that, “It is required of them that receive the sacrament of the Lord’s supper, that, during the time of the administration of it, with all holy reverence and attention they wait upon God in that ordinance,diligently observe the sacramental elements and actions…” You believe the sacramental actions are adiaphora?

      Jerry

    • Tom Cannon

      Classic “loaded question” Jerry. Try again.

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Tom – I’m not accusing you of anything or trying to bait you. I’m sorry if it came across that way. I genuinely want to understand how you think the sacramental actions are adiaphora in light of what the catechism says there. I’ll try to get at this another way:

      Do you believe WLC 174 is compatible with a view that the sacramental actions are adiaphora?

  • knowtea

    Once again, I will ask: why does everyone seem to think that “common cup” always and only equals intinction? I’ve taken Communion well over 150 times from a common cup. Most of those times were in Episcopal churches where everyone went forward. A few of those times were in churches where the common cup was passed through the rows. Everyone just took a sip from the cup. Exacly how are “the intinction churches” “bringing back the common cup”? In all those times, I remember seeing an intonction vessel once: as an option but not as the only chance to commune in both kinds. Many Episcopal bishops do not approve of intinction vessels at all. There was talk of “conflating” last week: let’s not conflate common cup with intinction as if they are one and the same.

    Let’s also not do the straw-man thing and talk as if the only alternative to intinction is the boring tiny crackers and juice in plastic cups. Many churches use a common loaf that is broken into sections and each section put on a plate for communicants to break off a piece. Many churches that use individual cups put wine in those cups (which are often glass rather than plastic). The “intinction churches” are also by no means the only churches celebrating the Eucharist weekly. There is a very wide range of Communion practices among Reformed churches. Some even do it different ways on different weeks.

    • bggjr

       I do not think intinction is the only way to bring back the common cup. If that was communicated, it was not my intention. That one way people “do” common cup communion but certainly not the only way.

      Our plant uses 1 1/2 oz shot glasses and a couple loaves of bread.

    • knowtea

      A 1.5 oz shot for everyone? Do you have limes and salt too? :-)

      On the “common cup always and only means intinction” thing: your post wasn’t the only instance. It seems that everyone I saw talking about intinction last week did so from the understanding that this was the only way to “do” common cup. Maybe they are not aware that the most, well, COMMON way to do common cup is just to take a sip of the wine.

  • knowtea

    And FWIW I heard Nadab and Abihu invoked all the time when I was in seminary, and by PCA folks, not Fundamenalist Baptists. Advent Candles, banners, the Church Year, etc. etc. were each called “strange fire” at some point, so I’m not surprised someone brought them up.

    • bggjr

       It was the first time I’d heard that from a PCA person. That was what surprised me.

    • http://twitter.com/TimTaylor_Sr Tim Taylor

      It’s common in 2nd commandment/regulative principle discussions.

  • Jerry Koerkenmeier

    Bobby,

    Are the verbs “φάγετε” and “πίετε” descriptive or prescriptive? Is “τοῦτο ποιεῖτε” merely descriptive? Are they not imperative commands which apply to all of the disciples communing with Christ then and through the ages? If not, why do we use the words of institution in our liturgy?

    Are the accounts of the Supper in the synoptics merely descriptive? Apparently Paul finds them to be fairly prescriptive:

    1 Corinthians 11:23–26 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

    Sitting around a table and the geographical source of our bread (unleavened or otherwise) are circumstances. I don’t mean they are unimportant, but they are nothing like the clear, imperative command of the Lord Jesus Christ that the communicants are to “drink”. Intinction would ordinarily prevent the communicant from obeying this command.

    Our larger catechism calls upon the communicants to “… diligently observe the sacramental elements and actions…” (WLC 174). Do you agree with the WLC here? If so, it would seem that you would consider a question about the sacramental actions themselves to be more than circumstances – these are placed right at the top along with the sacramental elements.

    Much is made of the importance of the common cup. Do you find some prescription for a common cup in Scripture? Though there is discussion about the symbolism of the common loaf in 1 Cor. 10 (and even this argument breaks down when pushed too far – consider the unity of all believers across multiple congregations each with their own loaf), the argument for the common cup appears to be weaker. After all, there is some implication that Jesus himself may not have used a common cup (Luke 22:17 – And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves.”) 

    It seems odd that many who opposed the BCO change argue that we are getting our priorities wrong, and that there are more important problems to deal with first. If this is the case, why don’t you (and anyone else who shares your belief) either a) overture the Assembly to effect the reforms you find more important, or b) initiate judicial process against those who you believe are already violating the constitution? You don’t think grape juice should be allowed, then why not overture clarifying language or charge those who you believe violate the constitutional language (“wine”)? You see, the reason we discussed intinction at this GA is that a presbytery sent up an overture dealing with the practice. If you think we need to discuss/clarify the use of wine, send up an overture! 

    Jerry

    As an aside – you had never heard Nadab and Abihu brought up in the context of worship in Presbyterian circles? That seems very odd to me – where did you attend seminary? When you discussed the regulative principle of worship, they weren’t mentioned?

    • Kyle Wells

      Hi Jerry,

      Thanks for your points. You ask Bobby: “Do you find some prescription for a common cup in Scripture?” I would not want to speak for him, but one answer might be found in the grammar of the commandment. Of course in 1 Cor 11 there is no command to “drink”. Paul assumes drinking, but he does not command it. The same is true in Mark’s account. He commands them to “receive” the bread, but not the cup. (It is another discussion whether or not the differences between all the accounts suggest that things should be taken less rigidly.) Matthew’s account is where we find two separate and clearly delineated commands to “eat” and “drink”. But the imperatives ”φάγετε” and “πίετε” have objects that are intrinsic to their meaning. The command is specifically πίετε ἐξ αὐτοῦ πάντες (drink from it, you all). Of course, the antecedent to the pronoun “αὐτοῦ” is ποτήριον, an individual cup. This is the argument that Ron (minority report presenter) was making.

      Beyond that, however, imperatives are the only way the Bible prescribes things. Language simply doesn’t work like that. Evidence for this is clear from the fact that the imperative to drink is only given in Matthew. But surely all accounts suggest that receiving both elements is required.

      I am not saying that I would make this kind of an argument. I find the fact that the reception of the elements is described somewhat differently in each of the LS accounts to suggest that precision is not important at this point. Clearly others disagree. But I did want to present the grounds for a common cup. 

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      There is a command to drink in 1 Cor. 11. We see it in two places. First, verse 28 contains imperatives to “eat” and “drink.” Second, in verse 25, the verb “to drink” is in the subjunctive, but the command is to “do this.” By good and necessary consequence, we know he commands them to “drink it.” Those are commands to drink.

      The rest of the context makes it quite clear that the Lord’s Supper is to be celebrated in every church (not just as a circumstance in the first Supper) by eating and drinking. These two sacramental actions are mentioned quite frequently:v. 22: “Do you not have houses to eat and drink in?”v. 25: “as often as you drink it”v. 26: “as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup”v. 27: Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup”v. 28: “and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup”v. 29: “anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body…”v. 29: “eats and drinks judgment on himself.”You say that Mark’s account contains no command to drink, and this is true. However, two things need to be said here. First, I would suggest that your exegetical method is flawed if it determines importance of a given command by counting the number of synoptic authors mentioning such command. It simply won’t do for those who hold to inerrancy to make such arguments. Matthew records Jesus’ command to drink. The end. Mark doesn’t need to lend credibility to the command in his account for the command to have force. Second, note that the drinking is absolutely clear in Mark as well. Mark says (14:24) that Jesus took a cup, blessed it, and “they all drank of it.” Then he tells them he will not “drink again” of the fruit of the vine until that day when he “drink it new” in the kingdom of God. They drank. And the drinking reminds them of Christ’s promise to drink again with us.The object of the drink is a red herring in this debate/discussion. It simply has no bearing on the question of dipping the bread into the cup. Whether the “drink of it” means a single cup, or whether it means to drink of the liquid inside of the cup divided amongst the apostles is irrelevant to this debate. Now – it’s a discussion I would like to have both for personal growth and to better reform the practice of the church – but it does not advance the cause of the pro-intinction or the intinction-freedom parties one iota. Ron Lutjens (who presented the majority, not the minority report) made this argument, along with several other red herring arguments (such as the fact that the Scots were certain a table was required), but it should not have persuaded anyone for this very reason.
      You say, “all accounts suggest that receiving both elements is required.” They suggest more than this. They suggest the communicant is to eat the bread and drink the cup.

      Jerry

    • Jared Nelson

      Well stated Jerry. I believe it is of the utmost importance to tell our people to do what Jesus told them to do, not to do what he told them not to do, and to cover our mouths on areas where God does not speak. To that end, I would love to hear a positive argument that intinction is in fact a matter of liberty in light of the two commands, the nature of those commands (what constitutes eating and drinking) and if intinction is obedient. If that is not answered, it should settle our conviction that it is not a matter of liberty but disobedience. And if it is a matter of disobedience it is a conversation that must occur or we should be disciplined as disobedient children for our disobedience.

      I am eager to hear and understand the argument that intinction is a matter of liberty, for I have never seen one, merely read those that assume such. I hope there are those who can teach me and perhaps inform my ignorance from the Scriptures and plain reason.

  • James Hakim

    Reading your article, I am encouraged in my hope that the proponents of intinction act out of ignorance, rather than rebellion. Using Scripture is a different thing than understanding it and submitting to it. 

    The language of 1Cor 11:23 is inescapably drawn from 1Cor 11:1-2 in the context. That settles the issue of descriptive and prescriptive. The command to “do this” further settles it.

    When Jesus says “do this,” and says “eat” and then “drink” in two very distinct actions; and then, the Holy Spirit summarizes the effect of “doing this” beginning with “for as often as you eat the bread and drink the cup,” that leaves us with eating bread and drinking cups as absolute non-negotiables.

    I agree with you that we must use wine, but even that is not as clearly specified as the two actions of eating and drinking. 

    There is so very much more to do biblically-theologically here, not the least of which is the intentional separation of the body from the blood in a sacrifice, followed by our Lord’s intentional separation of the body and the cup (not just the blood–the cup is the new covenant in His blood). 

    But none of that biblical theological work–NONE of it–encourages or permits the practice of intinction. Rather, both the local exegesis/exposition and the broader biblical theology reveals that intinction is a horror that actually dismantles the sacrament and disobeys Christ.

    If you are disturbed by the reference to Nadab and Abihu, then you draw offense at how serious God is about how He is to be worshiped. You can take that up with Him.

    Human innovation in worship, what Colossians 2 calls “will-worship” (in the Greek), is an abomination. As soon as it can be proved that obeying the prescriptions of God for worship, as well as can be executed in accordance with the light of nature, cannot result in the practice of intinction, all mouths should be shut.

    For proof of how ancient is the practice, one proponent was pointing to the 4th century. That also should have settled the question. We have liberty of conscience–where the biblically informed worshiper can be sure that everything we do in worship is a direct obedience to a prescription of God–not the slavery to men that comes with a Romanist or Lutheran principle of worship.

    Like I said, I am trying very hard to “believe all things” here–that what we have is misunderstanding of the Scripture, rather than blatant disregard for it. But that brings me to the issue of fitness for ministry.

    If you cannot handle very simple, straightforward biblical commands without obfuscating them; and, if you actually have had little enough exposure to the biblical principle of worship (aka RPW) that you never heard Leviticus 10 exposited in that discussion; and, if you are not insistent that whatever differences may be allowed in a man’s thought, he must joyfully conform to it in both teaching and practice, then perhaps you may be called to the eldership at some future point, but I do not believe you yet to be fit for it. We have a 3:1 TE to congregation ratio in the PCA. I would have no problem with that, were it not that biblical, doctrinal, and historical ineptitude is at the root of so many of our ongoing problems.

    Some of us can only take vows in good conscience in a confessional denomination. For those of you who can do so in another one, then it seems to me that it would honor God for you to go there for the sake of both the peace and the purity of the church. I am not eager to prosecute brothers, but we are all men under vows, and we live and move and minister first and foremost before the face of God. 

    Having a denominational conversation like this enables us to be clearer about what is already there, and serves the purity of the church. Having a denominational conversation like this enables those who are bound by their consciences to what is already there to take some action that might recover their brothers, and so put off the unpleasant but necessary remedial action of instituting process.

    Now, when will we reform to the point where we are using one large loaf of unleavened bread, broken and divided among all, and a very large cup, divided into smaller cups (take this and divide it among yourselves! A single cup isn’t required by Scripture), of wine (grape juice didn’t even really exist until the 19th century)?

    I don’t know when that day will come. But none of those things are as plain in the text, or as specifically commanded as “eat the bread” and “drink the cup.” If God is gracious enough to help us get this much done, then let’s pursue the wine, and the single loaf of unleavened bread. 

    Right now, we are seeing if we can agree on that which is commanded and specified by the very language of the Scripture, and if brothers will submit to what is already clear in the documents that have authority over us.

    Again, I think that a large number of TE’s are going to have to swallow here, go back to the plain Scripture, nod their heads, and say, “thank you, brothers, for pointing all of that out to us–we had some really well-meaning reasons for this, but it turns out that we were wrongheaded on something that is extremely important to our Lord Himself, and we’re so grateful for your help on that!”

    If this discussion, on something so plain, cannot end that way, then I think what we have in the PCA is a confessional church on paper, and one that confesses Christ as King in some ways, but that in reality reflects more closely the book of Judges: “And there was no King in Israel, and everyone did what was right in his own eyes.”

    • http://raewhitlock.com/ Rae Whitlock

      James,

      I’m grateful that you’re assuming the best. I can confidently say that no one I know who finds intinction a valid mode of administering the Lord’s Supper is doing it out of rebellion… plus, I’m certainly more ignorant of scripture than even I know. Looking forward to the conversation.

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Rae – Like you, I’m really looking forward to the conversation here. I’ve been frustrated that V73 hasn’t had much substantive discussion in the past. It seems like the conversation ends as soon as anyone makes comments that disagree with the author and ask difficult questions that pose a challenge to the original view. I’m confident that discussion about the questions James and I posed will be very edifying to all of us especially as we prepare to discuss these matters in our respective presbyteries.

    • http://raewhitlock.com/ Rae Whitlock

      Jerry, et al,

      Well… it’s good to see that some substantial conversation has indeed taken place on this thread. :) I don’t know how much I can really add at this point, but I’ll (try to) briefly address a few things…

      1) I’m just not convinced, at this point, that this mode of administering the Lord’s Supper violates Christ’s commands to eat and drink. I speak about that more fully in the response I gave to my presbytery’s study committee (which my friend Tim Ling linked below). I understand that saying such a thing might make folks’ heads explode with incredulity and that my intellect may be questioned on this point… but my intellect is questionable anyway. I also concede that I could be wrong. Perhaps in the course of the next year’s conversation my views will “evolve,” like our President’s did on marriage.

      2) Overall, I really hope that, like Rev. Hakim, more folks who are in favor of this BCO amendment would realize that those who oppose it don’t do so out of rebellion toward God. Further, I hope that the assumptions that we “can’t handle straightforward biblical commands” or that we don’t take worship seriously will be silenced through conversations on presbytery floors, one-on-one over coffee and dinner, and even in online venues like blogs and forums. (I’m not really counting on that last one.)

      I know that there’s plenty that I didn’t address, but the above really gets at where I am right now. Grace and peace, y’all. Enjoy the Lord’s Day tomorrow.

    • Jared J Nelson

      I do wonder, when those who practice intinction can see where their practice might violate another’s conscience. No one makes the case the intinction is the biblical mode of the supper but merely that other should let them practice their preference. But this actually violates Christian liberty, forcing a biblically suspect practice upon congregants. Just as we should not introduce a novel element into the worship (such as an altar call) because it does not have biblical warrant, so to we ought not subject our congregation to those practices that do not have a positive and clear warrant in scripture. Our worship of God is not determined merely by what God tells us we must not do (leaving the rest to our creativity) but we are only to do what He positively commands, let a diversity of personal preferences usurp the place of a Worship that is reformed according to Scripture and not human will and convention.

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Rae,

      On a lark today I decided to look at various definitions of the verb “drink.” It seems that every definition makes reference to the form/phase of what is consumed, that it is a “liquid” which is brought into the mouth and swallowed. I think it’s odd to get this technical, because I can’t believe that any reasonable person, upon seeing a person eat a liquid-soaked solid would be comfortable saying the person had “drank” anything. I’ll email you the full entry from the Oxford English Dictionary, Second Edition if you’re interested (almost 4,000 words on the definition of “drink” – gotta love OED), but I think it bears this out:

      1. a.I.1.a To take (liquid) into the stomach; to swallow down, imbibe, quaff.6.I.6 To swallow down the contents of (a cup or vessel). Also with off, up, indicating completeness, and fig. to drink the cup, or chalice, of joy, sorrow, suffering, etc.: see cup n. 9, chalice 1 b. 10.II.10 absol. a.II.10.a To swallow down or imbibe water or other liquid, for nourishment or quenching of thirst. Const. †in, from, out of (the vessel).

      I don’t deny that you could use either “eat” or “drink” depending on the mode of consuming a liquid like broth, soup, applesauce, yogurt, or other runny “foods.” But I don’t think you can use “drink” to describe “chewing and swallowing a solid that has absorbed a liquid.” You get milk with cereal, but that isn’t drinking unless you lift the bowl to your mount or use a straw. If you soak steaks in beer before consumption, you wouldn’t say you drank the beer.

      Yes – as I review all that I’ve written above I do appreciate the absolutely ridiculous nature of this comment, but I’ll go ahead and hit the “Post” button anyway. 

  • James Hakim

    As for liturgical anarchy, we do in fact have it: http://bit.ly/LEo5GM

  • James Hakim

    By the way, the table thing is extremely important and IS in our BCO. Not only are we to have a table, but it is to be decently covered. Why?

    Because Jesus said, “do THIS.”

    And, whatever else “this” means, it means eating and drinking as a meal. Not a sacrifice. Not a replay of a sacrifice. But a meal.

    I’m grateful for our Scottish fathers who made a stink about it for weeks, and wouldn’t let up in the face of great resistance. 

    Raking them across the coals as if they are an example of being nitpicky or straining gnats is either historically ignorant, pastorally unwise, patently ungrateful, or some combination from the three.

    I think that our BCO goes beyond Scripture by requiring the table covering, but I’m also grateful for the thinking behind that–that we would be clear that this is a meal table and not a work table or a sacrifice table or a magician’s table.

    • Rberman

      To whom does covering the table make it clear that it’s a meal table and not a work table or a magician’s table? And by “covering the table” do you mean the tablecloth underneath it or, as was the practice at my PCA church growing up, a cloth put over the elements until the appropriate time in the worship service?

    • knowtea

      The PCA’s BCO says the table should be “decently covered, and furnished with bread and wine.” I interpret that as putting a tablecloth on the table before you put the bread and wine on the table. I worked in a church where they put the Communion trays on the bare wooden table and then made a big deal out of covering them with this white “veil,” very ceremoniously lifting and folding it, etc. I don’t “get” the veil. I always interpreted the “decently covered” part to be just “good manners”:  if you were to have people over for dinner at home, you’d put a tablecloth down, or at least use placemats, etc.

    • Rberman

      The tablecloth would make sense if people were coming to the table to partake the bread and wine, er, cup. Makes cleanup easy. But when the table is just the place the bread and cup sit until they’re passed up and down the pews by ushers, there’s really no danger of spilling on the table, and thus the tablecloth becomes superfluous. Not that we don’t do superfluous things in our culture all the time just for show, like fake lintels and keystones and quoins on houses. I just wouldn’t enshrine those showy superfluities in mandatory rules to bind men’s consciences, even if I personally am “grateful for the thinking behind” the rule in question.

    • Jedidiah

      James, I am grateful that the Westminster divines argued about these questions for weeks too. But I wanted to point out, if you were referring to our Committee’s report, that their work was brought up, not as a warning against  being ‘nitpicky’ but as an example of patient debate over questions of sacramental practice and ultimately in favor of some areas of altitude in basic practices (of course that could be abused, but the question of tables was a similar kind of debate).

  • kennethos

    Hey Bobby:
    First, great to catch up w/you and Jen at GA.
    As one of the military chaplains in the PCA, I use intinction fairly often in my communion services (which are done almost every time I do a field service). I use wine (never grape juice!) and communion host (from the local Catholic supply), since they hold up pretty well in field conditions (i.e., the desert). In your typical urban/ rural church with room, time, and equipment, it’s easy to do common cup or even little plastic/glass cups. Not everybody does this, of course. I’ve visited enough European churches to see the difference, as well as other places around the world. So in some ways, the PCA conversation is limited (shocker there!).  We’re also divorcing ourselves from the ANE of Jesus, his passover, and the Hebrew rendition of it. Perhaps someday we’ll get back to an honest conversation. Not anytime soon, though.

    • Jared Nelson

      I want to ask everyone that assumes that this is a matter of liberty to argue that. Why when the conversation is occurring, is it lamented that an honest conversation cannot occur? So I would also invite you to comment on Jerry’s comments below where he asks if
      EATING soggy bread is the same as DRINKING, and if we need to observe
      that there are two commands, not one, concerning the partaking of the
      supper. I understand that you believe it is a matter of liberty, but
      that is being challenged and if it is not answered, then it becomes a
      matter of disobedience, and I don’t want to ignore a matter of
      disobedience, nor allow our sheep to be subjected to disobedience on the
      part of ministers to the command of Christ our Lord. I look forward to hearing your side of the conversation if you are willing to engage in the conversation.

    • kennethos

       My suspicion that an honest conversation cannot (yet) occur is based on watching all the debates/divisions at GA. There are those who, in their pursuit of purity, will abandon peace. Those who pursue peace, will abandon purity. (Generalities here.) It seems this issue (a minor one) is being elevated in value by some who are convinced that others are not living out their faith properly (demonstrated by by in favor on this practice).
      A question to be asked: when people died in NT times after taking the supper in an unworthy manner, are we to think this refers to the actual way the supper was served (a possibility, to be sure!), or more likely, to the heart condition of the partakers? Even in my field services as a chaplain, I fence the table, since Scripture (in the words of St. Paul) demands this. I’ve read through 1 Cor. 11 to my congregants many times. The passage has never struck me as relating to how it’s served (i.e., the minister officiating improperly), though that’s a definite possibility, but instead, a call to have people search their hearts, confess sins, and receive grace and forgiveness through the gospel.
      When intinction is used (whether with communion host, or bread, etc.), drinking can take place in the “sucking” motion in the mouth…. unless we’re suddenly finding in Scripture a command to exercise the lips, tongue, throat, etc. (which strikes me as hard to find in the Greek, and a bit of eisegesis to apply to the gospels and Paul). So this all strikes me a some pettiness (not that seeking to obey God is petty, mind you, but straining at the details, the jots and tittles, can in some contexts be very petty indeed).
      I will welcome a bit on conversation from you, although this is just a tack-on to what Bobby is saying. My own practice is more pragmatic than anything else (I’ve never had the luxury of time or room with services in the desert, to use little cups for wine…just my normal chaplain’s kit), due to the environment. Since I’ve had many, many soldiers thank me for serving the Lord’s Supper every service in the field (my small contribution as a PCA chaplain, amidst other chaplains who don’t do communion as often), I observe this as obedience to Christ as much as possible.  

    • Jared Nelson

       

      Kennethos-

      Thank you for your reply. I
      think there is much that I can take to heart and grow from there.

      The one place that might need some clarification is the
      meaning of “unity” in the church and what is the central organizing principle
      of that unity. I believe our Lord Jesus Christ gives us both the necessity and
      good of unity in his prayer in John 17:22 “that they may be one,” but only
      after giving the basis of that unity in 17:17: “Sanctify them in the truth,
      your word is truth.” The unity we have is in the truth. Ecclesiastical unity
      can hide doctrinal disunity [witness the mainlines, the Roman Catholic Church,
      etc.] Whereas Confessional Churches [Presbyterian and Lutheran] have based
      their unity on truth and doctrine rather than merely outward structures. If we
      are not unified in truth, ecclesiastical unity merely masks disunity and is
      disobedient to Christ’s commands and disregards his prayer to be set apart by
      the truth in his word.

      I believe the 1 Corinthians passages, in addition to Aaron’s
      sons bring strange fire, tells us of the gravity of disobedience and human creativity
      substituting for God’s commands. Aaron’s sons certainly had both a heart
      condition problem and a manner of worship problem, and the manner of worship
      illuminated the heart condition.

      I can see with how you present your case however, you have
      an interpretational disagreement that “to drink” can be understood as having
      liquid soaked in a food that you are eating. I would wonder at any other
      instances you can find where this is “pino” used in the manner you suggest –
      perhaps it is, but I would want to see this as a proper biblical understanding
      to conform to the regulative principle before allowing this novelty [and
      intinction is a novel practice, rather than the original practice of the
      apostles or church, I think all would agree]. We have to remember that the
      Reformers were very concerned about the denial of the cup to the laity in the
      medieval church, and we want to make sure we don’t do anything that is in
      effect a denial of the cup to the laity.

      I sympathize with your situation, however. I was a hospital
      chaplain before I was ordained and refused to administer the Lord’s Supper due
      to conviction that I was not authorized to do so, despite pressure from other co-workers
      to do so. Obedience in circumstances that are not in the four walls of the
      church is difficult given the context. I thank you for your service and the
      thought you have given to this. I see you fully believe your practice to be in
      obedience to the command of Christ, and think that the discussion should be
      focused there: Is this obedience to the command of Christ or not? [Just as
      asking about serving wine or grape juice should be asked, and perhaps this is a
      reform that is needed now too, to be more in conformity with Scripture, the
      Standards and BCO]. Perhaps both sides need to take some time to do a word
      study on pino in Greek, as well as looking at the original understanding of the
      word and continue the conversation from there. That will be my endeavor for my
      own edification in this matter.

    • kennethos

       Jared:
      I appreciate the civility of your reply!, as well as taking the time to understand and work through my thinking (not everybody would do this).
      I would agree that we need to be careful in how we do things, as the RPW teaches. Yet, in studying Scripture, and becoming more aware of ANE issues behind Scripture that have not been addressed, and might potentially result in alterations to Reformed worship and principles, I have seen how this results in deeper understanding of what Scripture teaches (a good thing), but not reflected in clarification of 16/17th century documents (our Confessions) which might simplify things for us. I see the Reformed community delighting in being Reformed, but not necessarily delighting in the always Reforming aspects of life before Christ (which does not delight me as much).
      Intinction is an issue which, in its unimportance, may simply end up being one of Christian liberty. There is (hopefully) no debate surrounding it akin to con/transubstantiation. It is simply a bit different that bread (leavened/unleavened), or crackers (matzoh/Saltines?), or wine/grape juice. This is an issue that enables those who gain “feel good” moments out of being better Presbyterians than others (self-righteousness) to hammer others (who perhaps rightfully do not see any such huge issues). Such behavior, in my book, is shameful (said with the knowledge that I am a rather young and inexperienced TE/chaplain, compared with older, godlier men), when regarding issues that are not sin issues, and are not leading to folks presumably dying because of disobeying God.
      Anyone else going after this issue (in ways publicly and visibly similar to that done regarding paedocommunion and FV theology [neither of which I subscribe to]) is demonstrating they are in need of spiritual growth and sanctification (as are we all, obviously). You are correct in stating that this needs to be in obedience to the command of Christ. I agree wholeheartedly in this. I do not see, however, any of our practices of communion as necessarily in violation of Christ’s commands, Scripture, confessions, or BCO (usage of grape juice, after all, can be done in consideration of those with issues regarding alcohol, after all).
      A word study, as you suggest, might be helpful. Far better, in my estimation, is a thorough study of what Passover meant for the Hebrews, how it changed (or was altered by Jesus) for Christians, and what options are acceptable (i.e., these are OK, those aren’t). (Withholding either host or wine, for example, ought to be no-no’s.) Remembering that Westminster and Presbyterianism are not the heights of biblical or Christian understandings would be helpful too (though I think they’re correct).

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Kennethos – Just to make sure I understand you – it is your position that those who speak against intinction are self-righteous hammering of those who they believe are inferior. They are shameful men who need spiritual growth and sanctification to see that this matter is unimportant.

      Is that a fair assessment of your views?

    • Tim Ling

      The Ohio Presbytery Intinction Study Committee did look into the practice of intinction in the military chaplaincy, and our final report had this paragraph on the matter – was wondering if you’d agree with it: “The study committee also looked into the influence of the military chaplaincy on the practice of intinction in the PCA. Several chaplains were consulted, including TE Doug Lee, Executive Director of the Presbyterian & Reformed Joint Commission (PRJC) [18]. The feedback indicates that most PCA chaplains do not practice intinction; however, some PCA chaplains practice intinction while serving communion in the field (but not in a chapel or church setting), given the logistical difficulties of serving communion in the field. It is also unlikely that chaplains returning as pastors of PCA churches would advocate for intinction as the communion practice in these churches; the only exception that the study committee found was the PCA church in Arlington, Virginia – mentioned previously as practicing intinction in 1982 – that was planted by a retired PCA chaplain.”

    • kennethos

       Yup…pretty much a summary of what I’ve written in my previous two comments.
      Given that the chaplain (deployed, in the field, in the desert) carries everything in a backpack, to whatever base he visits, intinction simply makes the most practical, logistical sense. (I’m not arguing RPW, commands in Scripture, etc. I’m leaving that for the big-brained people. I’m the guy called to minister to folks while getting shot at, after all….much easier than, say, church planting or arguing over theological minutia.)

  • Tim Ling

    Pastor Bobby:Regarding your statement ”
     I do believe the practice should be allowed because I believe it to be adiaphora.”  I’m assuming that this is the same as stated by others as intinction is a “circumstance” and not an “element” of worship.  My question is “What is the basis or thought process (e.g., biblical, theological, historical, pragmatic, emotional, etc.) that you used to determine that intinction is adiaphora or a circumstance of worship?  For that matter, what parts of this sacrament is adiaphora and what parts are not?”

  • Tim Ling

    Wanted to provide these links related to the Ohio Presbytery Intinction Study Committee’s work – I did chair this study committee:
    Final study committee report:http://theaquilareport.com/the-pca-ohio-presbytery-receives-committee-report-on-intinction/
    A response (but not a minority report) from Rae Whitlock who’s on the study committee:http://theaquilareport.com/a-response-to-the-final-report-of-ohio-presbyterys-intinction-study-committee/
    A response to Rae Whitlock’s dissent:http://www.weswhite.net/2012/02/response-to-the-dissent-from-ohio-presbyterys-intinction-report/

  • http://twitter.com/schweissing David Schweissing

    A few thoughts and responses:

    1) Thanks for your thoughts, Bobby. I agree that there is a larger (and much more significant) discussion to be had here, but unfortunately, I’m not convinced that the PCA is capable of having it.

    2) I find it curious that many arguments focus on the clear imperatives of “eat” and “drink”, but without a corresponding emphasis on the objects of those imperatives: bread and the cup.

    3) Regarding the importance of getting “eat” and “drink” correct before addressing issues of bread and wine, I will be quite surprised if those making this case actually offer up overtures for a common loaf and real wine in the future. I doubt there is any real interest in doing so, which perhaps raises questions as to our motives here.

    4) I would also like to “believe all things” here, but when we suggest that those who disagree with us on secondary matters do so out of either ignorance or rebellion (are these really the only options?), are unfit for ministry, received inferior seminary training, or are simply unwilling to learn from our wisdom, I’m not sure that we’re really interested in hearing one another. I think it shows instead that we don’t consider our brothers to be brothers.

    • Jared Nelson

       Responses to responses:

      1) If the conversation is to be had, it needs two sides to do so. Jerry’s post above about the actual commands of Scripture and the distinction between descriptive and prescriptive await response. I would love to see that conversation progress.

      2) You have stated your curiousity, but would invite you to state your convictions, and whether the objects as you understand them have corresponding imperatives as to their precise make up and form.

      3) Can I ask why you question the motives of those who believe that intinction violates Scriptural commands rather than engaging them in meaningful dialogue based on your convictions? Do you believe that it is fair to characterize motivations of opponents in such a way?

      4) Point 4 leaves me, again, wishing that the conversation would occur, rather than talking about the conversation and why the other side is mean or that we can’t have the conversation.

    • http://twitter.com/schweissing David Schweissing

      Jared,

      I did not make an argument about my own convictions for the simple reason that I am in agreement with the point about “eat” and “drink” being imperatives. I am also in agreement with the point that we ought to be concerned with the objects of those imperatives! If you’re looking for substance for either of those, I think Todd Gwennap and Kyle Wells offered quite a bit in their above comments, with which I think you’ve already interacted. In short, I am simply wondering why the Lord’s Supper is of such a nature that it can only be considered in its parts rather than as a whole (imperative verbs now; direct objects later).

      I’m sorry that I communicated to you (and Jerry, apparently) that I’m questioning the motives of people. I do think the claim that we can address issues such as a common loaf or real wine after we get the imperatives right is more a deflection of those questions than real engagement. Honestly, do we really think that the PCA would ever approve an overture to use actual wine? :-) But if I am proven wrong, I will happily stand corrected.

      As far as talking about “why the other side is mean,” I don’t believe I’ve done so. I just think that going into a discussion suggesting that the other side is either ignorant or rebellious will likely cause my arguments to go unheard. But hey, that’s just been my own experience – I may well be in the minority here.

    • Jared Nelson

       I would just say we already are instructed to use “bread and wine” [BCO 58-5, LC 168, 169, 170 etc,
      WCF 29.3, 29.6, 29.7] So then if the elements are prescribed we can move to the actions and talk about that.

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      David,

      2. I have preferences with regard to the objects (elements) of the Lord’s Supper: I prefer wine and leavened bread. I prefer a single or few loaves and as few cups as possible. My preferences are based on doctrinal reasons which I will share should anyone desire to discuss this further. I am willing, however, to grant freedom with regard to grape juice (which is still “fruit of the vine” and “cup”) and leavened bread (which is still “bread”). Why do you maintain that there is not a corresponding emphasis on the objects of the imperatives? The issue at hand is intinction. It’s a red herring to constantly point to the elements of bread and wine which are not the subject under debate. Now, Bobby’s post argued that we are having the wrong conversation. Fine – let him (or anyone who believes there is a larger problem) either overture clarifying language so we can debate that issue.

      3. You doubt the motives of those desiring to clarify that intinction is contrary to Scripture. On what basis? Because you suspect we won’t overture the Assembly to require a common loaf and real wine? What does that prove? Did those opposing intinction claim that the Scriptures require one loaf per congregation and real wine in a single cup per congregation? I believe we should use one loaf if possible and real wine, but I think neither is as important as obeying the clear imperative commands of Christ instituting the nature of the Lord’s Supper with sacramental actions: “eat” “drink”. I’ll make a new comment regarding the wine and the “one loaf”/”one cup” argument so we can discuss that separately. Just note here that believing we are to have “one cup” in no way supports intinction. We can either pass around a single cup, bring people forward to drink from a single cup, or bring up groups at a time to sit at a table and pass around a single cup there. Perhaps we could also take the single cup, divide it amongst ourselves, and then drink together as another way of showing unity.

      4. If one is convinced that X is a clear command in Scripture, and if his brother in the Lord disagrees, then yes, the only options available to the mind convinced of X is that his brother is either ignorant or disobedient. What other option would you suggest? That X is true for one but not another? Is it relative?

      For the record, I consider all in this discussion so far as brothers in Christ, and I am truly interested in hearing them and hope they will give ear to my words as well!

  • Stuart

    As a TE who voted at GA for the BCO change on intinction, I’m willing to have a conversation with those who see it another way.

    So would someone like to enter into that conversation with me on why we should consider what seem to be explicit commands (eat and drink) to be adiaphora?

  • Jerry Koerkenmeier

    Bobby,

    I understand you weren’t writing to change minds. I also get that you may think we should go spend time loving our neighbor & community instead of discussing things on blogs. Even if you don’t have time or desire to enter into discussion, would you at least correct an objectively false statement you made in your post? You say, “Fifth, the Bible, Westminster Standards and BCO clearly state “wine” for the sacrament.” That’s all correct except “the Bible.” It doesn’t clearly state “wine” for the sacrament. I think it’s obviously what was used, and think it’s what we should use today, but what you wrote isn’t accurate, and it perpetuates an idea that those who do serve grape juice disobey some explicit statement of scripture.

    Jerry

    • bggjr

      Jerry,
      The Church used wine until the mid-1800s. Commentaries support that wine was used as do Paul’s instructions about those abusing communion in 1 Cor. I stand by what I wrote.

      Bobby

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Bobby, I agree with everything you wrote, but would still take issue with the statement “the Bible clearly states “wine”". It doesn’t state “wine.” It doesn’t use the word for wine. However obvious it may be that they used wine (I find it humorous to read the arguments challenging such an understanding), it doesn’t clearly state it using “oinos.” It’s almost surprising that it doesn’t. I think the fact that the Word of God uses generic terms like “cup” and “the fruit of the vine” grants some freedom such that a congregation using grape juice cannot rightly be said to not be serving the Lord’s Supper. I think using grape juice is a poor substitute for wine primarily because I think some theological symbolism is lost in the substitution, and because I  don’t think we should do theology based on the novel ideas spread in the temperance movement. I would also point out to brothers who think that using wine in communion is progressive to remember it was the liberal social-gospel folks who promoted temperance and the substitution of grape juice for wine in the first place.

      Still – the Bible doesn’t “clearly state ‘wine’”. I guess we will have to be content to disagree on this point. Thanks for responding to me.

  • http://www.riverandrhett.com/ Mel Duncan

    Bobby,

    I’m a Ruling Elder, also at GA last week. Intinction discussion was very interesting as is your article. Curious about something. When you studied at seminary was there a class at sacraments? Also when you were first taught the RPW were you told this is a good thing, a binding thing, or a throwback. I suspect the answer to these questions will govern how many of us think on intinction.

    • bggjr

      Hey Mel,
      Thanks for asking. I appreciate your work each General Assembly.  I doubt you remember, but you were super helpful to me when I was the clerk for the MNA committee at the Nashville GA.

      When I was at Covenant, we studied sacraments in our ecclesiology course with Dr. Peterson and were responsible for the various NT Scripture passages, Mathison’s “Given For You,” the Westminster Standards, some of Calvin, and, I believe, some articles against paedocommunion. That was 7 or 8 years ago.

      We also studied sacraments in our Christian Worship course with Dr. Dalbey who taught that RPW was good.

      I also took a licensure and ordination course with Dr. Estock and we covered sacraments and I was privileged to take a seminar on Calvin’s Institutes from Dr. Calhoun where we also read Calvin’s theology of the Supper.

      I also wrote a paper for Dr. Lucas in a Jonathan Edwards seminar in which I covered Edwards shift away from the Halfway Covenant and I interacted with RPW, Westminster Standards as well as Stoddard, Edwards and Mather.

      Bobby

    • Mel Duncan

      Bobby, Thanks for your kind words and going into this detail. 
      Let me say I too have directly and indirectly benefited from these men and works you’ve listed. I enjoyed getting to know Dr. Estock as a member of a CoC he chaired in Louisville. Let me say honestly I am no expert on the sacraments. Though I sure am interested in the conversation.
      On this issue I’m coming from a place where the self  evident prevalence of intinction sure seems like an innovation driven by the normative principle.  

  • PCA RE

    The discussion so far has been interesting.  I think the problem with many of these discussions is that they treat the Standards in an atomistic fashion.  That is to say that one aspect of a truth is not seen as connecting to any other areas in the Confessions themselves.  Our forebears would have great trouble in what is not said or what is implied by the arguments in the article that undermine aspects of our Standards unwittingly.

    As I see it, there are three fundamental problems with Intinction.  All appeals to “dialog” or “peace” need to address these.  Why?  Because we all claim to confess *together* what the Scriptures principally teach and if an argument is going to be made in support of intinction by one Biblical appeal then this needs to be squared with other areas where the arguer has not stated an exception to the Standards but either explicitly denies another aspect of our Standards or leaves in great doubt whether he holds to those other aspects.

    The three areas that must be considered are:

    1.  The Regulative Principle for Worship.  This has been addressed but I need to remind everyone that *if* you agree with the RPW then any appeal to how ancient a practice, how pragmatic a practice is, or whether you think it is “aidophora” is quite irrelevant.  If you want to state, up front, that you take exception  to our Confessions on the subject of the RPW then do so and make your argument consistent with this practice.  If, however, you believe that the 2nd Commandment prohibits any worship not positively commanded then you need to more fully interact with this concern.

    2.  Liberty has been spoken of but not in the manner that the Confessions themselves address in WCF 20.  The chief concern, with respect to worship, is that God alone is Lord of Conscience and has left it free from any doctrines of men.  It specifically mentions worship as an arena where we do NOT have the freedom to innovate precisely BECAUSE the liberty of worshipers must be kept free from any such innovation.  Arguments such as “Well, nobody in my congregation has a problem with it…” again fail to address this issue.  We are not free to innovate simply because nobody complains but must leave the worshiper’s conscience free from being bound to anything lacking Scriptural warrant.  Again, if you desire to make this argument make your exception known to WCF 20 and then proceed with the argument for freedom to practice something according to consensus or pragmatism.  If you do not take exception to WCF 20 then you must satisfactorily harmonize any argument for intinction with what we confess about liberty of conscience.

    3.  Another effect of this practice has to do with our understanding of the Sacraments as visible signs and seals of the Covenant of Grace.  The sign is united to the thing signified in such a way that worthy recipients receive the grace of the thing signified.  In a nutshell, Sacraments are a form of “visible testimony” of the person and work of Christ.  During the institution of the Lord’s supper, and in the recapitulation by Paul, there is an association with the body of Christ with one spiritual reality while the blood of Christ is directly said to signify another.  If we do not deny Sacramental union then we must affirm that the worshiper is being lifted up into heavenly places to understand one aspect of Christ’s ministry by eating and another by drinking.  It is a foretaste of a heavenly banquet.  Is that heavenly banquet one in which all the food is mashed together so the food and drink are all one?  Is there not something we can direct the worshiper unto as they are eating and another by drinking?

    Once again, those who argue for intinction must address the Sacramental question of the union of thing with the grace signified.  An appeal to a common cup for the sake of unity is an argument for intinction but please explain how this understanding now harmonizes with what we believe about the Sacramental union of signs and why Christ and the Apostle directed us to two realities with each action and not one.  It is not satisfactory to simply hand wave as if Christ has no purpose in the two actions when this has been our united understanding.

    In summary, if we truly wish to respect one another in this dialog I would like to see those who are arguing for intinction to respect the Confession we share.  Harmonize your arguments with what you affirm elsewhere in our common standards.  Consider whether your arguments *can* be harmonized and either make your exception to other aspects of our Standards known so that we know we are not using language equivocally or that we may understand how you are able to make your argument fully hang together with what we believe is the summary of Biblical teaching on this topic.

  • Jedidiah Slaboda

    The way I read the Bible, we should ‘do this’ in such a way that resembles, symbolically, both the meal with Christ (a gathering of disciples, word, bread and wine blessed and eucharized, eaten and drunk by all), and also the sacrifice of Christ (the bread broken, the wine outpoured). That seems to imply at least two distinct acts of consecration, if not two distinct acts of ingesting the elements.

    What I don’t like about the way this all went down is 1. the rush to address a question by way of a simple majority; 2. the seeming unwillingness of those who see intinction as a violation of Scripture to try to see things differently or perhaps publicly remove the grape-juice thimble violations of our constitution and the RPW from their own communion tables before seeking to remove the soggy bread from their brothers’. I’ve never been one to argue that one error excuses another, but acknowledging that most likely all of our churches, and certainly our GAs, have allowed for unfaithful sacramental innovations, might assure me that this ‘problem’ isn’t more of a chess move.

  • Brad Jones

    Some here have commented that leavened vs unleavened is not important. That certainly wasn’t true of the Passover or any other sacrifice to God!  Yeast/Leaven was prohibited from not only the Passover but from ALL offerings/sacrifices (cf. Exo 12:15; Lev 2:11). In fact, any person who ate leavened bread during the week around the Passover was to be cut off from the people of God (Exo 12:19). Is this relevant for the Lord’s Supper and the New Covenant Church? Well, Jesus certainly used unleavened bread in the Lord’s Supper. And consider these words of Paul to the Corinthian church just a few chapters before he explicitly deals with Communion; notice he seems to make some interesting allusions to the Lord’s Supper:

    “6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.” (1 Cor 5:6-8)

    It sounds to me like Paul is pointing them to the Lord’s Supper and to Christ in order to make a point about their unity (one loaf) and their new sinless identity (lacking leaven/yeast, which in the ancient world was an old portion of dough kept from a previous batch). I only mention this to echo the thought that those who wish to ban intinction seem to miss the many other aspects of the Lord’s Supper that could be discussed.

  • D. Clair Davis

    Intinction. 

    One Lord, one faith, one baptism–one would think the line would continue, one Supper.  But we even have different labels: Supper, Communion, Eucharist.  More pressing is diversity of practice.  Our Scots fathers were sure of the significance of the Table, so set up tables at the front of the church and had groups of people come forward to partake around those tables.  I could imagine doing that today, perhaps on Good Friday.

    What should the elements be?  Wine or grape juice or both?  Include gluten-free crackers? 

    The ‘intinction’ issue concerns the use of the Common Cup, where all partake from the same cup.  Not only does that symbolize the unity of believers with each other, but even more unity with our Lord.  Most likely a common cup was used at the first Supper, with the Lord himself drinking from it, and promising to do it again when he returns.  It seems impossible to determine that a common cup was not used, either from exegesis of the relevant passages or from cultural practice.

    The issue today seems to concern the partaking of the elements individually.  They are naturally immediately mixed together in the mouth, so how important is it that they not be so blended a second previously?

    The practical concern today is usually the hygiene.  Even when the cup is rotated and wiped after another partakes, even though it is possible that the alcohol in wine is a sanitizer, many of us will still doubt the hygienic safety of the common cup.  Today it makes it easier and simpler for some of us to focus on the deep meaning of the Supper when we practice dunking the bread in the wine. 

    Must the symbolic and religious value of the Common Cup be given up because dunking or intinction has for others negative associations?  I believe the value of the Common Cup is very clear, and the objections by far not that clear.

    It is helpful that we are deciding this not by a judicial commission’s ruling but by considering a change to our standards.  The whole church at the regional presbytery level can be involved.  I hope very much that the presbyteries will reject this change, as they consider the deep value the Common Cup has for many of us. 

    D. Clair Davis

    Teaching Elder of the North Texas Presbytery

    Professor of Church History and Chaplain at Redeemer Seminary in Dallas.  

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Dr. Davis,

      The intinction issue does not directly concern the common cup. One can have a common cup in many other ways. For example, a common cup could be passed among the congregation seated in the pew, the common cup could be offered to those coming forward to drink from it, the common cup could be administered to those seated at a communion table. The common cup simply does not require intinction, and is therefore no argument in its favor. We can have a common cup, if desired, while still “observing the sacramental elements and actions” (WLC 174 – actions plural). The congregation may still use a common cup and follow the command of our Lord to “drink.” The communicants are then “to take and eat the bread, and to drink the wine, in thankful remembrance that the body of Christ was broken and given, and his blood shed, for them.” (WLC 169).

      However, I’m not so sure the common cup is required in scripture or our standards. There’s some question about whether Christ used a common cup, or divided the cup amongst the apostles before the words of institution in Luke 22:17, while still referring to it as “the cup.” Nevertheless, the description in every Biblical account is clear that the eating came before the drinking, that they were done with two separate instructions, that the words pointed each sign to a different spiritual reality, and that in some cases we read the specific commands of Christ to “eat” and then to “drink.” Surely this is clearer than any command that we must have one, and only one cup. The argument is there in 1 Cor. 10, but certainly not as strong as the argument for a single loaf. Nevertheless, Paul does not specify one loaf and cup explicitly, but rather appears to draw an illustration from the single loaf (and possibly cup). Now, I think a single cup and loaf are best for this very reason, but I recognize that the unity of the body is shown as well in a few shared loaves. For communion shows our union not merely with others in the local assembly, but with the entire body of Christ. This is true despite the fact that no two congregations share a single loaf between them.

      Jerry

    • Tim Ling

      Here’s a reference to the Ohio Presbytery Intinction Study Committee’s work which had to address the issue of the “common”/”single” cup to justify intinction – here’s our response to Question 3 of the overture that authorized the study committee:“Question 3: Does the preservation of the “single cup” in communion theologically trump the keeping of the elements separate?This question arises from the argument that intinction is the more biblical mode of distributing the elements in keeping with the passing of the common cup at the Lord’s Supper (Matt. 26:27, Mark 14:23, Luke 22:17). The committee answered Question 3 in the negative – the preservation of the “single cup” in communion does not theologically trump the keeping of the elements separate.We had to ask about the single cup idea as offering support for the practice of intinction. In other words, does Jesus’ taking of “a cup”, which some intinction advocates point to as grounds for its practice, as recorded in the texts of Scripture, take more priority than the command of Christ to “drink”? The Scripture texts cited in the previous biblical discussion clearly command all to eat and drink; this is the way that we are called to feed upon Christ, by Christ, in His sacrifice for us. The common cup held with intinction as its mode of distribution violates the direct command of Christ who told His people to drink, which doesn’t occur in intinction, to its adherents own admission.”

    • knowtea

      1) Intinction is not the only way to use a common cup. It’s not even the most common way to use a common cup, nor is it the most historic way to use a common cup (unless we’re talking about the East).
      2) Intinction is less hygienic that drinking from the common cup, not more hygienic.

    • knowtea

      *THAN drinking, not “that drinking.” Tiny keys, big fingers.

    • Michael Cummins

      I’d like to see any evidence to support claim #2.

    • Jedidiah Slaboda

      Michael, all of the studies I have found on hygiene and the Lord’s Supper confirm that ironically intinction and the use of thimbles are the most problematic because our hands are so dirty. I have seen countless fingers make it into the common cup when intinction is used. The little cups have all been touched by someone’s hands as they were placed in the tray. 

    • Michael Cummins

      Interesting.  I can’t make any scientific claims, have not read any studies, etc, but have practiced communion in many formats now and feel  most comfortable with intinction as far as germs, though honestly I’m not really worried about it at all.  Perhaps my favorite form is the common cup, which I would think is the least “hygienic” as everyone generally drinks from the same spot on the rim of the cup.  And no, wine is not strong enough alcohol to kill those germs.  Maybe this is a good reason to promote the use of whiskey for communion? :-P

      All the bread around the one you’re trying to grab tend to be touched when you’re grabbing a “Jez-It” as one popular (and crude) comedian calls the traditional bread.  As you mentioned, someone touches all the cups to put them in the tray, and its hard not to touch the surrounding ones while grabbing your little shot glass.  

      From my experience with intinction, the pastor touches the bread to break it, but mostly where we don’t partake from, and I don’t have any trouble pulling off a piece w/o touching the rest.  I can see how people could dunk their fingers in the wine I suppose, but that still seems both less likely (most people don’t want wine on their fingers), and less of a problem than having the germs directly on the edge of the cup you’re drinking from.  But, I’m no scientist nor particularly read up on the issue, just my thoughts and impressions.  
      All that said, I don’t really care one way or the other about the hygiene stuff, I think we tend to blow those things way out of proportion.  Interesting thoughts though.

    • sdesocio

      Jed. is right, I read an research article finding that youll transmit more germs and virus during a greeting time than during the use of the common cup. the researcher found that there was no statistical difference in terms of rate of sickness between Joe Shmo who didn’t even go to church and someone who regularly used the common cup. Though that same researcher found that intinction is not a unsanitary as some people thing.

  • Andrew Barnes

    I have a question more about not why/why not practice intinction, but why is intinction being practiced in the first place.  

    First, from what I gather here and at GA, intinction is primarily practiced by those churches recently planted within the PCA (not with older, established churches, so much).  What are your perceptions as to why this is?
    Second, the main question, where did the idea to practice intinction come from since it is not the norm for PCA congregations?  I know a few of you are church planters and you do practice intinction.  One would suspect that it was you who introduced that to your church plant and is why your congregation practices it now.  So where did you get the idea from?

    • Jedidiah Slaboda

      Andrew, I think it is out of a desire to use something like a common cup without the perceived unhygienic practice of drinking from it with the mouth.

    • Michael Cummins

      I think this is one of the main reasons, but others come up as well.  Such as the military chaplain posting here, who can’t realistically take 200 little cups out into the field with him, or sometimes its for medical reasons, such as in a nursing home where some elderly people might not be able to eat bread dry… the wine makes partaking in communion possible where the other formats, including common cup, would not be possible.  
      There are significant theological reasons too, trying to preserve the intent of the sacrament by changing the form slightly… this mostly gets back to Jedidiah’s comment though, that its basically going for the common cup idea.  

      I think its important to keep in mind that while there are practical and pragmatic reasons why churches/chaplains, etc CHOOSE to practice intinction, the reasons we should or should not ALLOW its practice are not pragmatic.  It should be allowed b/c its a long stretch to claim that it goes against Christ’s commands, and even longer stretch to say that it goes against the intent and significance of the sacrament.  

      While understanding the reasons why people want to practice intinction is helpful, it should not be a major factor in the reasons why it should or should not be banned.  That should remain primarily in the realm of exegesis of the Word and intent of Scripture.  

      The motivations for practicing and allowing intinction are separate issues, and must not be confused with each other.  

    • http://www.facebook.com/jedidiah.slaboda Jedidiah Slaboda

      Michael, there doesn’t seem to be any reason why a minister in this situation couldn’t serve the cup separately from the bread. People don’t drink from it because they are afraid of germs. 

    • Michael Cummins

      Am I misunderstanding your comment, or did you refute your first sentence with your second one?

      My personal preference is the common cup, which I think is what you’re referring to in your post.  I would choose it over the practice of intinction, and over the very modern method that the PCA generally uses (which begs the question of why we do that, why that ever started, and if we should embrace that “novel” new approach, as someone called intinction somewhere on here…).  I think its a little ridiculous how worried people are about germs and such…  

      Someone referred to the “universally accepted” method of communion (meaning the way the PCA historically has done it) as something that we should submit to in order to keep unity of the brethren.  I submit that this method is neither universally accepted, nor historically supported.  Claiming that we must defer to crackers and shot glasses doesn’t have historical support of being anything more than PCA traditionalism for the sake of conformity.  Unity and Scriptural support are quite lacking for this method using the same logic being used to try to refute intinction.  

      I think the only way you can consistently make the arguments made here against intinction, at least in context of the way the PCA has historically partaken in communion, is to say that you must use wine from a common cup, unleavened bread from one (or at least as few as possible) loaf, around a table following a fellowship meal.  Even the act of inserting it into a church worship service separate from a meal seems a bit of a stretch, regardless of how its carried out from there.  

      But I think that line of reasoning, just like the movement against intinction, are just traditionalism/legalism/conformism at work, illustrating a loss of focus on what’s truly important in the sacrament.  All three methods being discussed are good, beneficial methods, assuming they’re administered properly – drawing the focus of the whole sacrament where it belongs.  

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Michael,

      “Universally accepted” was used in a very specific context: partaking of the elements separately. It wasn’t employed with reference to any other matter (single versus multiple cups, leavened versus unleavened bread, wine versus grape juice, distribution in the pew versus coming forward, etc.).

  • Michael Cummins

    I’d like to see pictures of some of these congregations with TEs and REs so adamant about following imperatives to the Tee.  I was unaware that the PCA was full of heavily bearded, long-haired men, women with covered heads not speaking in church, people bearing crosses, and playing the harp for worship (to name just a few).  That would be interesting, I’d like to visit your congregations.  

    I’m not an elder, or particularly trained in the BCO, WLC, etc.  I’m pretty familiar with WCF and the catechisms, but those aren’t my primary concern either.  A great resource, but still fallible words of man.  Scripture is the only and final authority for me.  

    I fully support the taking of Scripture seriously, but as many have pointed out, there’s a great deal of selective enforcement of Scripture’s many, MANY imperative commands.  If you are going to go so far as to say that consuming a liquid soaked into bread is not drinking and breaks an imperative command, and further that worship matters can only be done if explicitly commanded in Scripture, how do you reconcile the countless imperatives we don’t follow, and the countless practices we perform that are not mandated by Scripture?

    And I’m not interested in church order references etc, for the above mentioned reasons. 

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Michael,

      Since none of us follow the the Biblical imperatives to the tee, are there any imperatives you believe must be followed? Would you admonish your children to obey the Lord even though you have failed to keep every command, or would that be hypocritical?

    • Michael Cummins

      Yes, the logical conclusion from my post is that I don’t believe in any imperatives.  

      My point was simply to ask why this extremely minute difference is getting such a strong reaction of “this is an imperative statement and therefore must be copied verbatim,” when we as a denomination so clearly dismiss so many other imperatives.  

      Advocates of intinction are not trying to dismiss a command, they’re not trying to undermine a sacrament.  They’re not ignoring the imperatives of Christ.  They’re perhaps applying it a bit differently, trying to capture the message, the significance, the point of the sacrament.  They’re doing so in a manner that is very minutely different than the “standard” way of doing so, but still presenting the same theology, the same sacramental significance.  They’re doing so in a way that I, with many others, would argue does not break any imperative at all.  

      But even if I were to grant that it does break an imperative in some way, why the outcry over this and not over the any other imperatives that the PCA, as an organization, blatantly disregards every day?  

      I won’t accept the argument that we must follow this imperative by carbon copying the original method, b/c its an argument that you don’t consistently apply to Scripture.  

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Michael – I never questioned the motives of those who practice intinction. I merely stated that among other issues, intinction violates the command of Jesus to “drink.” It’s a small matter, yes. But it isn’t a matter of personal view. The way we practice the sacraments is important, since we as elders bind our congregations to follow the practice. All we are asking is that the flock be permitted to follow the Lord’s instruction to eat the bread and drink the cup. If it’s no big deal, then why not follow the practice we see in the Word, the one that causes no division or conscience issues for our brothers and sisters?

      Again, the reason this issue is before us is that a Presbytery asked us to deal with it. You believe there are several imperatives the PCA as an organization blatantly disregards every day. You could at least tell us what they are, or ask your elders to overture changes where such disobedience is occurring. If you love your brothers and sisters in the PCA, then you ought to exhort us to obey the Lord’s commands (John 14:15).

    • Michael Cummins

      The imperatives are obvious, and I already referenced several of them.  That you’re asking me to name some examples shows how much we ignore these imperatives… that they didn’t even register as examples.  

      When I refer to an “imperative,” I mean simply that Scripture used the imperative to state them, not that I believe we are to follow them today.  So for me to overture changes would be ridiculous (since I don’t think we should legalistically follow them), just as I think the overture against intinction is ridiculous and a terrible waste of GA’s time.  

      Honestly, I don’t really care one way or the other about intinction.  My church practices it, and I’m ok with that.  I’m totally fine with other practices that preserve and respect the sacramental significance.  

      What I’m not fine with is people coming at it with a supposedly straight up scriptural obedience to an imperative argument, when this reasoning is not applied elsewhere to scripture. 

      What I’m not ok with, is an essentially traditionalist approach, which is fairly flimsily supported with scriptural arguments…  If you want a “true” representation of the original sacrament, you won’t find it in any PCA church I’ve ever been to.  I’ve taken communion in as close to its original format as I imagine ever happens (outside the PCA), the PCA has altered that for various reasons, yet this similar type change is considered unacceptable?  I attribute this to traditionalist thinking far more than theology (“this is the way we’ve always done it, not this newfangled thing”), but I could be wrong.   

      What I’m not ok with is people bringing extremely minute issues to the Presbytery or GA floor when there are so many more relevant issues in today’s church.  There are plenty of legalistic denominations out there already.  One of the things I respect about the PCA is their ability to walk the line between solid theology and avoiding legalism.  Things like this make me wonder if that respect is well founded.  

      I sincerely hope that this does not pass this coming year, not so much b/c I “really believe in intinction,” but as precedent in GA to not work towards a frivolous legalism.  And maybe even to spend that time on real issues.  

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Michael – I had intended to inquire about your definition of legalism and to discuss the need for elders to debate and discuss a variety of matters of great importance and sometimes less importance… but I think I’ll just thank you for the discussion and leave it there. Grace and peace to you, brother!

    • Michael Cummins

      There is also a big difference between believing/promoting the following of imperatives and actually doing them.  One is belief, one is human action, pervasively corrupted by sin.  

      This comparison of the two makes no actual point, as if believing and teaching something as truth means you will necessarily follow in that belief with your actions.  

  • kennethos

    No, Jerry, it’s not a fair assessment in the least. I suspect you know this. But if you read what I wrote, saw red, felt under attack, and immediately responded, without waiting, or calming down, I suppose this is the inevitable result.
    The context of what I wrote is very important here. It helps you to know what I’m saying, and why. I was making a point that in comparison to everything else, intinction is a small, petty area simply unworthy of such attention. I also made the point that some folks out there *seem* to be getting a “high” out of going after others (“SOMEBODY ON THE INTERNET IS WRONG!”, as opposed to “Yeah, so what? You and I have been wrong plenty of times, what else is new?”), as if those others are arch-heretics (which of course they’re not). They even seem to do so to the same extent as that attention given to the current hot topics of paedobaptism and FV theology. I was saying that it’s silly that such a topic garners such attention and fervor. If this does describe you (and I don’t recall talking about you at all), I’d just ask “why?” Is it really that important? Is this really an issue to make a stand on the floor of presbytery, or GA, for? (I wouldn’t.)
    Yes, I said that such attention *could* be a sign of self-righteousness. These days, honestly, what isn’t? Realistically, you as an RE, as much as I, a TE, are guilty of it, in presumably different ways. Perhaps you (or others, whoever they are) think those with differing positions are “inferior” (your word, not mine, since I never used it). If so, then yes, I would think that attitude to be “shameful”, since it’s not very godly or biblical. I would hope you wouldn’t be acting out such an attitude.
    You might notice that whenever I describe these things, I always include myself. I need grace, spiritual growth, sanctification as much as the folks who “act” as if intinction is a huge problem like other areas. That’s because I’ve done the whole “better Presbyterian/Christian” game (in college, surrounded by fundamentalists besieged by legalism), and I don’t play that game anymore. It’s useless to laity and others I serve and minister to, and Scripture, tradition (confessions, BCO, etc,) and community simply don’t support it. 
    Bottom line (at the bottom of response, natch): if you’re being self-righteous in your discussions with others (even unconsciously)…then congratulations, you’re being self-righteous! Join the crowd! Join us in repenting! If you’re not being self-righteous… then please tell me your secret. I, too, would love to be completely pure in heart in all my online dealings. Hasn’t happened to me, yet. You may be in the same boat as well.
    Btw, my response was initially to Jared. Thanks for jumping on. Look forward to more dialogue.
    Peace and grace to you.

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Kennethos – no worries, brother. I wasn’t offended or even angry. My point (which could and should have been made much more clearly) was simply that speculation about the motives of others in a debate is not helpful or charitable. You believe intinction is acceptable, and that the issue is unimportant. Others believe it isn’t acceptable, and has some importance since it involves the public worship of God, the command of the Savior, and the flock of God who display unity in communion. 
       I haven’t seen anyone accused of “arch-heresy” for their views. You didn’t use the word “inferior,” but you did imply that those opposing intinction may delight in “being better Presbyterians than others.” 

      The discussion here has been very respectful. I believe you should apologize to those oppose intinction for implying that they enjoy “being better Presbyterians than others” and accusing them of self-righteousness, shameful behavior, and spiritual immaturity, all because they are calmly and respectfully discussing a practice of the church (of which many are elders) based on the Word of God and our common confession.

    • kennethos

      Jerry:
      Glad to hear that you weren’t offended or angry (wasn’t quite clear to me, in what you wrote). That’s why I elaborated…so I wouldn’t be too confusing to others. I think I haven’t been clear enough, so I’ll try to be even clearer. I see intinction as being (currently, in our present church practice) as acceptable as using grape juice in communion. Unfermented, non-alcoholic grape juice clearly didn’t exist in the Bible, and didn’t until the mid-19th century. The PCA has evidently had little issue with grape juice alongside wine for communion, although only wine is truly biblical. That is less addressed than the practice of intinction. I see the practice as less important than many others, in comparison. Others may disagree, and that’s fine, but I haven’t been convinced fully. This is a hypocrisy which isn’t even addressed, much less addmitted (which I could respect, at least).
      I suppose some of the issue is one of semantics. The discussion here has been mostly respectful, even with some of the folks being argumentative (we *are* Presbyterians, after all!). I am, however, longing to be proven wrong in my view that some “enjoy being better Presbyterians.” Demonstrate to me that I’m mistaken in this viewpoint: show me calm and respectful discussion, gracious conversation, devoid of accusations and polemics, and I’ll apologize. 
      Grace and peace to you, brother.

  • Psouth

    In my declining time of decreasing hearing acuity, on this issue I hear faint sounds of convenience over substance.

    • Michael Cummins

      In my young, acute hearing, I hear a veiled attack containing no substance.

      If you have reason to disagree with what people are saying please do, but this kind of comment brings nothing to the table.

  • Jerry Koerkenmeier

    Here’s another thought, guys. If this practice is primarily being done for convenience, and it’s being done by men who believe in good conscience that the Scripture and Standards allow for this practice, why not, for the sake of the peace of the church, abandon what is thought to be permissible in favor of what is universally agreed to be permissible. I have no doubt that all of the men who practice intinction love their local church and the denomination. As a result, wouldn’t it please the Lord to give up what causes your brothers offense, even if you cannot be convinced yourself that the practice is inbiblical? What love and unity would be demonstrated if elders were to abandon a preference in favor of the peace of the church and love of brothers and desire to unify on a non-essential manner?

    • Michael Cummins

      I take exception to your qualifying comment, that this is being done primarily for convenience.  That may be the case in certain circumstances (in the field as a military chaplain), but I don’t think that is the reason, or at least not the primary reason, that most choose to use intinction.

      Universally accepted is misleading… its what the PCA currently does, and some of it is defined by BCO as acceptable, some of it is just accepted though it does not fall into the realm of acceptable by BCO.  This seems to be ok, for some reason, and as long as churches follow the traditional method, people are generally accepting.  That doesn’t mean its universally accepted.  

      What love and unity would be demonstrated if the church could look past frivolous, trivial things like this and spend their time and efforts spreading the Word, not dissecting it with an atomic microscope.  The PCA has allowed a decent amount of freedom in things like this historically, allowing congregations to have some preference, some choice, come into their decisions, as long as they’re not going against the core values of the denomination.  This does not, no matter how hard you want to make it out to, go against the message, purpose, and significance of the sacrament.  

      What love and unity would be felt in the church if we didn’t argue over stupid things.  Its arguing over stuff like this that has caused us to have FAR too many denominations.  Some divides were necessary (breaking from the RC, the PCA from the PCUSA, many others come to mind), but we have far too many denoms that could merge, if people would just get over themselves on some of these very minute issues and learn to be one body of Christ.  

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Michael.

      1. On the Overtures Committee, the floor of the General Assembly, and on subsequent discussions online, most who have spoken in favor of the practice have specifically pointed to a pragmatic reason.

      2. I have no idea what you mean by saying ”universally accepted is misleading.” I am not, and have never been, talking about every particular practice or circumstance in the observance of the Lord’s Supper. What I mean is that eating the bread first and then drinking the cup in two separate actions is universally accepted as Biblical (unlike questions about mode of baptism, we know for sure that the first Lord’s Supper included two separate actions of eating and drinking from Scripture.

      3. If I agreed that this was frivolous and trivial, I would not spend time arguing about it. You seem to invest much energy yourself on an issue you view as unimportant. To me, the sacramental elements and actions are very important matters of obedience to Christ. Presbyterians have historically had extremely high regard for the sacraments, and have found discussions over their practice to be worthy and fruitful topics of discussion.

    • Michael Cummins

      1.  Even if that is the case, I would say that all those supporting it as an option are arguing that it should be ALLOWED not b/c of pragmatic reasons, but b/c it violates nothing in scripture.  Pragmatism of course will come into anything like this, why wouldn’t it?  But to say that convenience is the primary reason people want to continue allowing intinction is not remotely true.  Allowing and choosing to use have different motivations.

      2.  This point was poorly presented in my post, and I don’t think its worth the time to try to explain what I meant, so I’ll just leave that one alone.  

      3.  My concern is not so much intinction as the general culture and direction of the PCA.  I think I’ve spent enough time referring to this in my posts to make that fairly clear.  Which way this one issue goes is not so much a concern to me b/c of intinction itself, but b/c I think the PCA is moving in the direction of losing sight of the finish line, the end of the race, the mission, in favor of worrying about which types of surfaces are permitted to run upon in the race.  Asphalt is not ok (too much oil content), cement is ok (for some reason), cobblestone is not (someone could trip), etc.  I propose that we spend more of our time as a denomination looking towards the goal.  Issues like this going to GA show that we’re not doing that effectively.  

      People fighting over minute differences like this instead of dealing with real issues cause me, and a great number of our brothers and sisters in Christ, offense.  Why should you not give up what you’re doing, as you’ve called us to do?  I already know your answer.  The problem is we disagree on the semantics of theology behind that answer.  Its the same reason those supporting intinction shouldn’t give up on their beliefs.  Otherwise, I have a GIANT list of things that the PCA needs to stop doing in order to not cause offense to our brothers and sisters.  

      Once again, extremely inconsistent application of strict observance of an imperative.  

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Thanks for the discussion, Michael. I think it has helped bring out important issues in this and other debates. I’m glad you were willing to engage me on these things. Grace and peace in the Lord to you, my brother.

    • http://www.facebook.com/jedidiah.slaboda Jedidiah Slaboda

      Jerry, I’m coming late to this comment, but I think this is a really good question. I agree that the churches that practice intinction have done a poor job (because it is not possible) arguing that intinction is either good or necessary. The non-intinction folks have done a poor job of showing the theological significance of what is lost if these sacramental actions are conflated (unlike the Reformation arguments against elevation of the host, facing East, etc.). In this situation it seems like the charitable thing for both sides to submit to one another. I think the weight of submission should fall on the novel approach.

  • Futonreformer

    I would like to suggest a different argument in favor of intinction. I am not suggesting that it is adiaphora or practically beneficial. I would like to suggest that intinction is, in fact, biblically and confessionally a good form of the Lord’s Supper. (Just a side note, I am working off of the paradigm the PCA currently uses allowing both pouring and sprinkling as normative means of baptism [BOCO 56]. Each of these different sacramental actions pictures a different nuance of baptism, and yet both are normative) A lot of attention has been paid to the “eat the bread and drink the cup” portions of the words of institution. I would like to suggest that more emphasis needs to be paid to the “Do this in remembrance of Me” part of the sacrament. Whenever we take communion we are proclaiming the Lord’s death until His return. A separate bread and cup do a fine job calling to mind the last supper and the future marriage supper of the Lamb. However, when it comes to remembering the death of our Lord, intinction is a superior sign. A bloody sop of bread is a vivid and nearly gruesome reminder of the broken body and poured out blood of our Savior. Remember WLC 163 says that part of the sacrament is a “sensible sign”. See-Smell-Taste-Touch-Hear. Intinction is a strong, if not stronger than traditional “passing plate” communion, sensible sign. Ultimately Jesus was not commanding us to particularly remember the last supper when we take of the Lord’s Table, He was commanding us to remember his death, which stands as short hand for his entire ministry on our behalf.

    justin
    @futonreformer

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Futonreformer,

      What’s a stronger symbol of death: the body and blood separated, or the body with blood in it?

      Why didn’t God think of this excellent symbolism when he specified how OT sacrifices were to be done (body and blood were separated, and when the Lord Jesus instituted the supper (in two separate acts)?

    • http://twitter.com/futonreformer Justin Woodall

      Jerry, 

      Sorry it took me a minute to get back with you. 

      As to your first question, it seems to me that I am not looking for a symbol of death in communion, I am looking for a symbol of Christ. And as I read the gospels, they all present Christ body, covered in blood on the Cross.

      To your second question, it seems to actually be 2. The first having to do with the OT sacrifices and the second having to do with Christ actions the evening of the last supper. 

      Surely you understand that the OT sacraments serve as forerunners and symbols, not as prescriptive in the details for NT sacraments. For example, the OT sacrament of initiation was bloody, physical, and permanent. Baptism, while applied to the same categories of people, is not a symbol that leaves a physical mark on our flesh.

      With regard to Jesus using to separate actions, I think there has been plenty discussion here of this. But if you need further explanation, this chart may help. wp.me/p136Ot-9s

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Justin,

      I must be missing something regarding your chart. You claim in the post that the debates in the PCA involve area “2″, which you define as sacramental actions. You include in this group, “How do we distribute and take the elements. Do we come forward or stay seated? Do we pass plates? Do we take the bread and wine separately or use intinction?” Is there some debate about whether or not we should allow freedom in any area but intinction? From what I’ve read here and elsewhere, those opposed to intinction are not arguing that we also restrict the freedom to come forward or stay seated, to pass plates or not, etc. So as far as I can tell, there is only one issue under debate in your area “2″: intinction. 

      Those opposed to banning the practice (or who practice it themselves) have argued that matters in your area “1″ should be restricted. A simple perusal of the original post here, and the subsequent comments, should show that this group is debating many of the things in area “1″ – they think they are much more important than the issues in area “2″.

      Now – area “3″ is where I really get lost, and hope if you respond you will address this first as most important. So, when we take communion with the elements separately, as Christ and the Apostles did at the last supper, we picture the supper itself and the eschatological feast. But when we practice intinction, we point to the cross. Okay – here’s where I need help: what did Christ picture when he instituted the supper with separate elements and actions?

    • Michael Cummins

      Most of the arguments that those supporting intinction have made regarding “area 1″ issues were not actually arguing that those things should be restricted.  Nor were they arguing that those issues are more important than intinction (at least in my understanding of their posts, and certainly as regards my posts).  The point was more that those diversions from the exact method presented in the last supper are accepted as ok, while intinction is not.  There is a big difference here.  
      I don’t personally find “areas 1 and 2″ very helpful in the chart… I don’t see much significance in the separation.  However, I think that the point Justin makes in “area 3″ is somewhat on point.  Extreme observation of exact practices of the last supper makes communion more about the last supper than about Christ and His work on the Cross.  Its a loss of focus on the point of communion to be so fixated on exact replication of the last supper.  I’m not sure I’d take it as far as to say that intinction is better than the Jez-It and Shot-glass method at pointing us to Christ, but I would agree that the extreme focus on minute details of the last supper translating verbatim into communion is losing some of the intended focus of the sacrament.  

    • Michael Cummins

      Good comparison to Baptism.  But be careful, or we’ll soon have an overture against immersion b/c of bringing this to the light…

      Oh, that’s inconvenient… sprinkling isn’t the form Christ performed.  Why are we sprinkling?

      Anyway, this is the perspective I’ve been coming from all along.  I wouldn’t claim intinction to be superior, but I do claim it is equivalent in validity, a good and acceptable form of the Lord’s Supper.  

      Thank you for drawing the focus to the important part of the sacrament, “Do this in remembrance of Me.”  

      Jerry, intinction is both symbols… you are presented the body, broken in front of you.  You are presented the blood, shed for you.  you hold the body in your fingers, free of the blood.  Indeed you tear a piece off the loaf yourself (in my church at least).  The separate signs are very clearly there.  Its not like we all go up and grab a floating chunk of bread out of a wine bowl, or tear of a piece of bread from an already saturated loaf.  The bread and wine are separated.  

      Which is the stronger symbol, one or the other, or both?  

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Michael,

      With regard to baptism, we have no clear and explicit command to “immerse” or “sprinkle” or “pour.” With regard to the Lord’s Supper we do have commands: “eat” and “drink.”

      Similarly, we simply don’t have specific descriptions of precisely how the baptism was done. On the other hand, much is said about the order and separation of the sacramental actions in the Supper, important enough for Paul to deliver to the Corinthians:

      For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. 1 Corinthians 11:23–29

      What the amendment to our BCO does is guarantee the right of every PCA member to drink the cup in the way prescribed.

      P.S. – As for the mode of baptism, I would highly commend to any who have not read it William the Baptist by James. M. Chaney. I’ve found it to be a concise and helpful treatment of the subject.

    • Michael Cummins

      Not interested in getting into a baptism argument here, so going to leave that one alone.  

      I’m about done with this pointless argument, especially when you don’t actually answer a lot of the points brought to the table.  One more thought…

      Much has been said about this “eat” and “drink” thing, and I still have yet to see how you can be so narrow focused about what those things mean.  Others seem to agree that “drink” can mean more than you state.  I think one example puts it into perspective:

      If an alcoholic were to attend a church service, lets say your service down the road when you’ve won your victory over the horrors of using grape juice in a service, and partake in communion using wine, would he have drunk alcohol?  Yes, of course.  (whether that’s right or not is another discussion, lets stay on the point).  

      Now that same alcoholic comes to my church, tears off a piece of bread, dips it into the wine, and (as we specifically say in our service) “eats and drinks” communion.  Has this man drunk alcohol?  I think anyone in AA would say yes, of course he has.  Why is this “drinking” but intinction as a form violates the command to “drink” the blood?

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      I’d just ask you to consider one objective test and one subjective one. First, look at whatever dictionary definition you can find regarding the verb “drink.” See if you can find a definition that would include chewing up something moist/soggy or to which a liquid was added. Second, do a little experiment. Get a friend or a child unfamiliar with this debate and have them watch you dip a piece of bread into a liquid, then chew it and swallow it. Ask them if you “drank” the liquid. I think you’ll see that it simply doesn’t make sense to refer to eating soggy bread as drinking. But far more importantly, Jesus gives a distinct meaning to each element. Furthermore, the separation of the elements themselves provide a vivid symbol of death (body and blood separated). 

    • http://www.facebook.com/jedidiah.slaboda Jedidiah Slaboda

      Jerry, Baptists would argue that you have begged the question. There is some weight to the argument that the command to baptize is a command to immerse.

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      It has some weight, but isn’t convincing in light of 1 Cor. 10:2 and passages like Matt. 3:11, Mark 1:8, 7:4, Luke 3:16, 11:38, John 1:33, Acts 1:5. 
      Acts 2:4, 9:18, 10:47, and 16:33 would also mitigate against it, I suppose, depending on how we understand the circumstances.

    • Michael Cummins

      Can you explain to me how passages stating that someone has baptized with water but Jesus will baptize with the HS says anything about Jed’s point?  Or how washing bowls and hands before eating is relevant to the point?  

      How about the baptism of Saul/Paul?  Why does that mitigate against Jed’s comment?  

      Or the outpouring of baptism/the Spirit to the gentiles?  

      As for the baptism of the family of the jailer, I can sort of see where you could take that, the same arguments for paedobaptism…  

      Of all your references, this is the only (fairly weak in my opinion) support I see of your assertion.  

      Unless you’re claiming that to fulfill the command to baptize is to directly outpour the HS into the baptized… in which case you’re making a deity claim on the baptizer.  I hope that’s not the argument.  John and others make it clear that they baptize with water, but Christ gives the Spirit.  So our command to baptize is to baptize with water.  Where you take it from there gets much more difficult.  

      What we do know is that the specific examples given in scripture were all almost certainly immersion.  Its in the realm of what we don’t know that the other methods developed.  BTW, I’m not claiming immersion is the only way, just speaking about the imperative to baptize.  

      I said I wasn’t going to get into a Baptism discussion, and there I went and did it anyway.  I’d like to return to the actual topic(s) of this post now…

      Any thoughts on my question above, the example of the alcoholic partaking in communion?  

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Michael,

      I expect Jed understood what I meant, but I didn’t give much context, so I’m sorry it wasn’t clear.

      Jed was pointing out that our Baptist brethren argue that the very meaning of the Greek word “baptizo” is “to immerse.” There is some weight to this argument, but it isn’t convincing because Scripture itself uses the word to mean something other than “immerse.” Every passage I cited shows this in some way or another.

      The Bible compares water baptism to baptism of the Holy Spirit. What mode is used in Spirit Baptism? See Acts 2:17 and 33 – the baptism of the Holy Spirit is by pouring. 

      The passage in 1 Cor. 10 shows that “baptizo” doesn’t mean “immerse” also. The Jews were baptized into Moses in the cloud and the sea, but they were not immersed in either. In fact, it was the Egyptians who were immersed.

      The passages about washing bowls and hands (and possibly furniture, depending on your manuscript preference in Mark 7:4) show that the OT ceremonial washings (which were not immersions) were considered “baptisms” and described using “baptizo.”Hebrews 9:10 also refers to these as “baptisms.”

      I have no idea what you mean about claiming deity for the baptizer. I didn’t intend anything like that – just to show that Scripture itself regularly uses the words “baptizo” (baptize) and “baptisms” (baptismos) to describe things which are not immersions.

      You said, “What we do know is that the specific examples given in scripture were all almost certainly immersion.” How do we know that? I don’t see that at all. (If you are referring to the “going down into the water” and the “coming up out of the water” concept I would urge you to look at those passages very carefully. Consider Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. Who was baptized in that case? Who went down into and came up out of the water?)

      In the passages I cited, the circumstances/context makes it very hard to believe that immersion was the method used. Some of the verses in that list would simply require a very strange reading if it were the case. 
      Paul had gone three days without sight, food, and water. Suddenly  his eyes are opened, he rises and is baptized. Then he eats and is strengthened. It’s possible, but unlikely that they found a big tub or body of water, immersed him into it, dried him off, and then gave the man some food and water. “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people…?” It would be odd to ask if anyone would “withhold” enough water to immerse someone. That much water can’t be easily held in the first place.

      I hope that helps. Like I said – I expect Jed understood what I meant. Sorry I didn’t give much context.

      I’ll respond to your other question in that thread.

    • Michael Cummins

      Jerry, 
      My greek is a little rusty, but I do have some knowledge of what you were referring to.  I don’t find it convincing though…

      ekcheo, “to pour out” or when used in this context, more precisely “to bestow” is the word used to describe the giving of the Spirit.  This word is not used to describe water baptism, to my knowledge.  It doesn’t make much sense, does it, to say that the Spirit was “immersed”  by Christ to us.  It is quite a stretch to claim that the use of this word here indicates that pouring was the method of baptism, its simply a better word to describe the giving of the Spirit than baptizo.  And to my knowledge, there is nothing in scripture that actually makes the claim that baptism was done with pouring, only circumstances that could, if you want to make them do so, be interpreted this way.  

      Baptizo used in I Cor is being used symbolically… does it make any sense to say that people were “sprinkled” or “poured” into Moses in the cloud?  The closest of the 3 baptism methods that makes sense in this instance is immersion… they were sort of immersed in the cloud of God, and “immersed” in a sense in that they were under the sea, though in this case not in the water.  The other definitions make no sense here, immersion makes only a little sense.  Making a direct correlation here seems a little misguided.  

      The ceremonial washings were the same basic meaning as baptism.  This seems to me to be the logical reason to use the same word.  Once again, the closest of the 3 meanings to make sense in the context of cleaning a bowl, for example, is to immerse it.  In fact, it is often the way they are cleaned.  Not many would think that simply “pouring water out” over a bowl or sprinkling water on it would be an acceptable washing.  If it was, one would expect the use of a different word, such as ekcheo.  But that would have lost the significance of the connection to baptism.  

      Once again your example of Philip leaves open the vague possibility that immersion was not used, but it is a stretch. Yes, the wording is not 100% specific that the eunuch was “dunked” in the water, and it is clear that BOTH went down into the water and came up out of it.  Still sounds like 90% of an immersion baptism description, and leaves a very small chance that they went down into the water for the purpose of sprinkling or pouring.  There is nothing beyond speculation to believe that this is the case.  Certainly at least a portion of the eunuch was immersed.  This is absolutely unquestionable, and not present in sprinkling or pouring.  And why would they bother to go down into the water if the intent was simply to sprinkle a little on his head, or pour a little over it?  It would be quite strange for someone to be traveling by chariot and not have some sort of liquid holding vessel with them that could have been used for such a ceremony.  

      Paul’s baptism was done after going 3 days w/o food and water.  I’m not sure if you meant to imply that food and water were not readily available by citing this detail, but being that he was praying inside a home, access to water was probably not overly scarce.  Once again, to assume from this that it would be “hard” or “strange” to find a body of water is quite presumptuous.  Almost as presumptuous as to assume that this means he was poured over or sprinkled on.  It simply doesn’t say, and we don’t really have any indication either way in this case.  

      Peter’s comment about “withholding” water uses the word kolusai, from koluo, “to refuse” or “to forbid.”  I hope I don’t really have to explain how this is different from “hiding” or whatever you were trying to say, enough water to do an immersion.  

      So again I ask, given all this context, where these references support your claim?

      How is it that you can give so much leeway to the definition of the word baptizo (totally changing its meaning), but absolutely none to the definition of the word pino, “to drink”?  

      How about an answer to my question about the alcoholic partaking in communion?  I’ve asked it 3 times now…

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Michael,

      I just don’t have the time to get into this particular discussion right now. Have you read R.W. Dale’s treatment of this topic (meaning of the word “baptizo”)? All I’ll say at this point is that it’s no stretch at all to say that the thing signified in baptism, the thing referred to by the same name “Spirit baptism” was unquestionably done by pouring and not immersion. Old testament sprinklings are called baptisms as well. So if you want to say that sprinklings and pourings are called baptism because they are “metaphorical immersions” then I have no problem with that.

      Why did they go down in the water? I think there was a preference for living/running water. My guess is that it looked something like this: http://bit.ly/LvOY0p or this http://bit.ly/Nf6SWt.

      I must have missed your question about the alcoholic partaking, but I see it now. Yes, he would have drunk alcohol in a church serving wine. No, he would not have drunk alcohol in intinction. But who cares – is he supposed to avoid merely “drinking” alcohol or is he to avoid consuming it altogether. I mean, can the dude eat a semi-solid dessert made with Bailey’s and get away with it because it isn’t “drinking?” I have no idea what the rules of AA are here, but my guess would be that they don’t want you consuming it in any form, liquid or solid. But to your main point, NO – I don’t think we get to refer to eating soggy bread as drinking, unless we were to first suck out (with lips or straw) the liquid first. If you can bite your tongue while doing it, it isn’t drinking. And I don’t get to decide the semantic range of words – that’s what lexical sources are for. They define drinking by referring to liquid. They also give “baptizo” a range much broader than “immerse”.

  • Michael Cummins

    I’d like to draw the focus back to Bobby’s original intent in the article, if possible.  Is intinction really what we should be discussing?  What about the many other ways we’ve changed, neglected to follow commands (such as to partake every time we gather), and otherwise ignored the directives of Christ in the supper?  

    Why are the historical changes accepted and a newer one causes so much stir?  There are many things we do that are different from the original supper and commands of Christ in that supper, and I personally don’t think that most of them are a problem.  However, if we are to take a hard-line stance against intinction, we must revisit the entire way we practice communion, or we are not being much more than traditionalists and conformists.  

    • Michael Cummins

      Nothing?  A week later and nobody wants to discuss the bigger picture (not to mention real topic of this post), just keep rehashing the minute nuances of whether or not consuming a liquid in bread is indeed “drinking?”

      I find this a bit sad… and a bit telling on way too many fronts: the quickly changing nature of the PCA, the state/depth of online discussions, etc.  

      I read a comment recently from a survey done by By Faith, where a respondent said that we have presbyteries that seem to be more interested in regulating the life of the church than building it.  Stuff like this seems to make this assessment ring true.  

    • sdesocio

      Silence is not always indifference, nor is a blog comment always the best avenue of debate.

    • Michael Cummins

      Agreed, as a general statement.  

      However people have clearly illustrated here that they’re not interested in being silent on the issue, and that they are more than willing to debate via blog.  Interest only seems to be in a minor point though, rather than in the more significant, larger, more difficult point that the article actually brings up.  Maybe its just too close to home…

    • kennethos

       I think it’s more that folks might be tired of how the conversation initially went. Seems to have deviated just a wee bit from Bobby’s initial posting. And, of course…it’s just a blog. ;)

  • http://www.facebook.com/jedidiah.slaboda Jedidiah Slaboda

    Daniel Jarfster, one of the main proponents of the BCO minority report recommending to amend the BCO and clearly ban the practice of intinction recently posted this to the Warfield List:

    Brothers,

    I read this the other morning and thought it highly applicable to the discussion on intinction in the PCA and all other areas of compromise in the broader church today.

    Charles Haddon Spurgeon – Morning and Evening – June 27 Morning

    Exodus 8:28, “Only ye shall not go very far away.”

    This is a crafty word from the lip of the arch-tyrant Pharaoh. If the poor bondage to Israelites must needs go out of Egypt, and he bargains with them that it shall not be very far away; not too far for them to escape the terror of his arms, and the observation of his spies.  After the same fashion, the world loves not the nonconformity of nonconformity, or the dissidence of dissent, it would have us be more charitable and not carry matters with to severe hand.  Death to the world, and burial with Christ, are experiences which carnal minds treat with ridicule; and hence, the ordinance which sets them forth is almost universally neglected, and even contemned. Worldly wisdom recommends the path of compromise, and talks of
    “moderation.”  According to this carnal policy, purity is admitted to be very desirable, but we are warned against being too precise; truth is of course to be followed, but error is not to be severely denounced.  “Yes,” says the world, “be spiritually minded by all means, but do not deny yourself a little gay society, and occasional ball, and a Christmas visit to a theatre. What’s the good of crying down a thing when it is so fashionable, and everybody he does it?”  Multitudes of professors yield to this cunning advice, to their own eternal ruin. If we would follow the Lord holy, we must go right away into the wilderness of separation, and leave the Egypt of the carnal world behind us.  We must leave its maxims, its pleasures, and its religion too, and go far away to the place where the Lord calls His sanctified ones.  When the town is on fire, our house cannot be too far from the flames.  When the plague is a broad, a
    man cannot be too far from its haunts.  The further from a viper the better, and the further from worldly conformity the better.  To all the true believers let the trumpet-call be sounded, “Come ye out from among them, be ye separate.”
    ___________________

    Sincerely,
    TE Daniel Jarstfer
    Westminster Presbytery – PCA
    – 

    • Michael Cummins

      If this is to be applied to “compromise” in the area of intinction, it should be equally applied to the areas of compromise in the use of grape juice, separate servings of juice/wine, the lack of a common meal at the sacrament, the use of a non-common loaf, any leavened breads, and so on.  If we’re to understand the last supper to be prescriptive (as you must to make these arguments against intinction), then all of these elements are also prescriptive and have been “compromised.”  

      I’d like to know what standard we are going by for the application of this reaction against “compromise.”  It certainly doesn’t seem consistent.  What conditions allow us to deem a compromise acceptable or not?  What exactly does “compromise” even mean in this context?  

      Without these things being clear and common in definition, its hard to have much of a reasonable discussion.  

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Michael,

      The standard here is determined by exegesis of the Word of God. Your argument here appears to be: if we are to take any part of the Lord’s Supper as prescritive, we must make every detail prescriptive. This is a non-sequitur. One very simple difference between description and prescription is the use of imperative verbs in the passages. 

    • Michael Cummins

      Why then do you say that you’re going to try to ban grape juice in your congregation?  This was not remotely imperative, nor is it even descriptively obvious that wine was used (though I don’t think you can make any reasonable argument that it was anything else).  
      Then how do we decide which imperatives to follow (interpret as prescriptive)?  Clearly we don’t follow all of the NT imperatives…

      Should we require churches to partake weekly?  That is an imperative related to the sacrament.  (not specifically “weekly,” but whenever you gather).  That is neither applied in the BCO, nor is it anywhere near the norm in the PCA, as I understand it.  

      For a tradition that proclaims systematic theology, I see no consistency, no real system in applying these imperatives to PCA life.  It’s seemingly random which ones we’ve adopted and which one’s we haven’t.  Its also seemingly random which descriptive elements we’ve taken as law and which ones we’ve taken to have interpretive/pragmatic freedom.  

      Without a clear and consistent system, how can you apply this idea of imperative to intinction (which I claim doesn’t break the imperative to start with, but that’s another issue), but not to other imperatives, even others w/in the same sacrament?  

      This is why I claim the primary motivation to ban intinction is more rooted in traditionalism and conformity than exegesis and unity.  Consistency would go a long way, at least for me, in establishing a credible argument against intinction…  

      But it will require, as Bobby has tried to bring to the light, changes far beyond just intinction in order to have a consistent and systematic exegesis of the Word related to communion.  

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Michael,

      It’s hard to judge attitudes in a comment box, but I am worried that you appear to be quite bitter, especially about the PCA’s sacramental practice. I do not believe that language of Scripture would ban grape juice. I do believe wine was used, and is to be preferred for theological / symbolic / historic reasons. We currently offer both wine and grape juice in our church. The problem, as Jed pointed out, is that the Westminster Standards and our Book of Church Order specify “wine” in every statement describing the elements. Now, as an elder, I am bound by my own vow to submit to the constitution (in this case both Westminster and BCO) with regard to our practice. If a man differs from the Standards in his views, he may be granted an exception and still be ordained, but he may not in any case practice something contrary to the constitution. Similarly, should a complaint be made against the Session on a constitutional matter, I would be obligated to judge the matter in accordance with the constitution, and not my own personal preferences or beliefs, or to recuse myself if I am unable to do so. Regardless of my personal preference and my interpretation of Scripture, I am bound to submit to the constitution in practice or peaceably depart. I can submit in this case (if it meant using only wine), since it would not violate my conscience, so I would endeavor to do so. If I or anyone else believe that the constitution is wrong, we may overture a change and plead our case to the Presbytery, then the General Assembly, then pray and argue for its approval by 2/3 of the presbyteries, and then again at a subsequent Assembly.
      However, in the time since I made that last remark about voting to remove grape juice in obedience to the constitution, some new information has come to my attention which I need to review before taking any action. There appears to be some precedent in past Assemblies with regard to interpreting “wine” in the standards and BCO broadly enough to include “grape juice.” If that is the case, then it is more complicated than simply going by what the text of the constitution says, because decisions of the Assembly are to be given due and serious consideration as expressing the mind of the church on a particular matter. Therefore, submission involves listening to and considering carefully the “pious advice” of Assemblies past on this matter.Hope that helps clear things up regarding wine.

      Now – I don’t honestly know which imperatives you believe the PCA is not consistently practicing. Perhaps you could give me specific examples, and point me to the Scriptural evidence that you believe is being ignored.

    • Michael Cummins

      I would assert a similar, hard to substantiate, claim upon your comments in this forum.  You seem quite bitter about different ideas from the standard PCA traditions.  

      I, on the other hand, am not bitter about the sacramental practice of the PCA, either traditional or the more current mode of intinction.  I am ok with all of these practices.  I have often tried to place myself into your mode of argument against intinction, and carry that out to its consistent conclusions.  If this comes across as my actual opinions or as bitterness, then I apologize for not being clear.  It is simply meant to illustrate an inconsistent theology.  

      I am a little bitter, however, at the state of the PCA that it is overturing GA about items like this.  This is the antithetical equivalent to the slippery slope arguments that conservatives make about allowing things like women deacons… its not really a big deal in and of itself, but it seems to be starting down a particular road – in this case, liberalism.  I find this type of overture to be the antithetical equivalent, starting down the path towards legalism.  That is why it is so important to me.  If the PCA bans intinction next GA, that issue itself will impact me as my church will have to change practice, but it is kind of a “no sweat” impact as far as intiction itself goes.  I’m ok with the other methods as well, maybe we’ll even move to the common cup (which is my preferred method of the acceptable options anyway).  But I am interested in not starting precedent of presbyteries overturing constantly about trivial things, worrying more about regulating and conforming the church than building and nurturing it.  

      As for having to submit to the BCO as a leader, I get it.  I appreciate that stance and commitment, it is your duty to do so as an elder.  But it doesn’t preclude discussion on whether or not those constitutional elements are correct or not.  And I personally am not in a position of church leadership, and not bound by the BCO.  I’m free to disagree with it both personally and publicly.  And I do, in a few cases (interestingly enough, mostly related to baptism, that has crept into this discussion).  When I was nominated for a leadership role, this was one thing that was in the back of my mind… one of several reasons I ultimately declined the nomination.  

      I cited a list of random commands about how to practice worship before.  Since we’ve been discussing I Cor a bit, lets start with Paul’s inspired commands that women be silent in church (which in biblical context meant within the church body, not a place or building).  (chapter 14, among other references)

      I make no claims that we should restrict women from speaking, but a strict application of following imperatives to the Tee would require such.  

      Or how about the one in my post that you just replied to?  Why do we allow monthly communion… I’m pretty sure Christ didn’t command to do this in remembrance of me, oh say about 1 out of every 4 times.  

    • Jerry Koerkenmeier

      Michael,

      I can speak of my view, and I have done so: I believe that wine ought to be preferred, but that the language of Scripture would not prohibit grape juice. I believe that the use of grape juice should be permitted. I believe leavened bread is to be preferred over unleavened for various reasons (including the meaning of the term “bread,” the theological import for unleavened bread in the Passover having expired, etc.), but that unleavened bread should be permitted. I believe that there are pros and cons to the various methods of distribution (seated around a table, distributing in the pews, coming forward) but that each of those ought to be permitted. I believe that a common cup is to be preferred, but is not absolutely necessary based on my understanding of 1 Corinthians 10 (no explicit mention of one cup) and some question about whether or not Jesus Himself separated the wine before the Supper in Luke 22:17. I believe that one loaf is to be preferred, and at least that we should not use the pre-broken crackers in light of 1 Cor. 10:17. However, I would oppose a ban on the use of multiple large loaves in a large congregation, because I believe it would serve to undermine, rather than enhance, the understanding of unity in the Supper. If we only show unity in a single loaf (and not two loaves, for instance), then we deny that we have unity and communion with our sister congregations in the presbytery, and with all other true branches of the visible church, because we don’t share one gigantic loaf among every congregation in every church in the world. 

      I see where you were going with the point about imperatives we don’t follow now. With regard to head coverings and silence in the church, I’m just not prepared to go there. It is not my position that the presence of an imperative verb in the Scripture requires us to practice it today. There are far more nuanced issues of context and intent to consider. But I would maintain that the presence of such imperatives in the words of institution mean that it is not mere description – Paul strengthens this idea when he references the same sacramental actions in 1 Cor. 11, along with the order in which they occurred, and the different meaning of each element. I believe intinction confuses these two distinct meaning which Christ gave and Paul delivers to the Corinthians, and even violates the simple instructions: “eat” and then “drink.”

  • Scott Brown

    Thank you Bobby!!! Well said, and great thoughts. 

  • Randy

    Bobby,

    Do you have any sense of how the Presbytery votes are turning out?

  • Terry Pruitt

    Thanks for your posting. I have not read much from those supporting intinction. I think the common cup idea is pretty relevant to the conversation. Unity in the body through unity in Christ is the message which is symbolized not through dozens or hundreds of little plastic cups spread through out the sanctuary. Though I am not entirely comfortable with intinction, I’m not sure I should be comfortable with evangelical status quo that is familiar and somewhat sterile.